Will There Still Be Sinners In The New Earth? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Jeff Banks, Andy Griess, and Bruce Peterson.

Bruce Peterson
So here's the question, in Revelation 22:12-15, this is Jesus speaking, it says this, "Look, I'm coming soon. My reward is with me, and I will give to each person, according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magical arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves him practices falsehood. So the question is, this is the last chapter of the Bible. And John has just told us all about this new city Jerusalem that comes down onto the new Earth. And there's no more death, no more sin, no more of the old things, all the old things are gone. And now at the close of the thing, it seems like maybe there's still dogs outside the city on the new Earth who are practicing magic. Maybe you shouldn't leave the city gates. You might get murdered.

Andy Griess
When she posed it to me on Thursday, I thought, man, what a great question. And then I realized kind of just looking at it more carefully, what appears to me is happening is, John has led us through this whole thing all the way to the end. And then just here at the very end, he's just going to take a big snapshot of the nuts and bolts of here's the final piece of this. And it is this, the final judgment has happened, and now that the new Heaven and new Earth is here and all those who are in Christ get to participate in it, it's a wonderful thing. Everybody's exciting, everybody's rejoicing, and then he just slips in at the end; but not everybody's going to be part of this. There's a group of people that are on the outside. I don't think literally outside the gates of the city, but they're not going to be participating in this. And so we've got at the end of all of human history, it all comes down to there's two very different groups.

Bruce Peterson
Yeah. I would agree with that. Right at the end, the headings in your Bible, even there, it says, this is the eulogy, like this is the wrap-up. And so here's the big story. The big story is, there's a place where there is no more sin and you get to be with God, and there's outside of that. You don't want to be on the outside. But here's what I think is interesting. Like this, in my Bible is all in red. This is a quote from Jesus, right? So John has broken it down, he's gotten lots of more information, and he's given us details. We don't really know when Jesus told this to John. John might have saved this quote. He might've got this quote in chapter one when he was talking to Jesus, when Jesus said, look, I'm the one who was dead and I'm now alive. I got the keys, here's the deal; there's the city, and this is where the righteous are. And you better get in the city because outside the city, is the dogs, now, John, go talk to the angels. They're going to explain all this stuff to you. And you're going to get all this detail about a city and a new Earth, cause there's not a new Earth. This chunk that Jesus is talking about, he doesn't even bring up the new Earth really. So I think John saved this quote for the end, because he's saying, listen, don't take my word for it. Jesus even said, listen, the righteous are in, the unrighteous are out.

Jeff Banks
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with that. And the fact that you brought up that this is red letter. This is the authority of Jesus, the assurance, everything that's been spoken about up to this point, that's going to be fulfilled the victory that's in Jesus. He's driving it home saying that, this is all true, and it's by the authority of Jesus. We do get reminded in the very end here that, there will be those who are going to enjoy life in the kingdom, in this new heaven and earth. And there's a reason why, and we want to get to that, and there's going to be some who are not going to experience it. These are those who are unredeemed or lost. These are the people that are going to be cast out of God's presence. And so now we wrestle with, what's the basis, who's it in? In verse14, blessed are those who washed their robes. Those who have been cleansed in the blood of the lamb and have the heart of the gospel, we've been talking about is that, those who have that through faith in Jesus, that Jesus pays for our sin and full through his blood. We get his righteousness credited to us. Those are the people that are in, and those who are not, are out.

Andy Griess
This is the last chapter of the Bible, I'd go to the very beginning of the story, where God creates everything and the idea is, you can have me as your king, this can be yours, but you've got to let me be the king. Will you allow me to be the one who's God? And at the beginning we reject God, sin comes into the world and sin is something that affects us all. And so when we look at this list of all the people that are outside, it's the dogs, it's those who practice magic, sexual immorality, murderers, idolaters, everyone who loves and practices falsehood, oh, that one gets us all right. I think that the beginning of the whole story is we all have rejected God. And so the whole story of the Bible is, is God gonna allow mankind to be separated from him forever? Or does he have a plan to fix what's been broken, to make us what he created us to be. And so the whole story is, you've given mankind chance. They can't, they can't, they can't. So we need a savior and then Jesus comes in. The whole thing of it is, there was all of mankind should have been in this category of outsiders outside. And we would have been, if it was up to us, if we had to contribute to ourselves, if we have to fix ourselves, we would forever be outsiders, which is why the entire Bible clearly points directly to the cross of Jesus and the resurrection and what he did.

Bruce Peterson
As you were talking, my brain went to just two chapters earlier in the great white throne of judgment, right? So this great white throne judgment that, all human kind is, kind of afraid of because there's books that are being kept and everything you do wrong that violates the law of God, including what you even think, including motives. So even if you do the right thing with the wrong motive, it gets written in this book. And then how do you not end up in the lake of fire in that chapter? The answer is, if your name is also written in the book of life; Well, what's the book of life about? 2 Corinthians 5:21 right? "He who knew no sin became sin so that we could become righteousness." Like I sin, you still sin. Any list God would comprise that would say, this is sin, we'd all be on that list. And the difference is, are we washed in the blood, right? We've been forgiven by the plan of God, which is Jesus. The one sacrifice that can make us alive, clean, and well.

Jeff Banks
Isn't that the heart of this, chapter 15, this isn't an exhaustive list. It's not like we're chatting on good or bad. It's pointing out, uncleansed sinners and their sin is still on them, that's the difference.

Bruce Peterson
They don't have a payment for it, so they still wear their labels. The first group, they might do those things, but they don't wear the labels. Their robes have been washed, not by them, in the blood of Christ. Some people are washed and some are not for a million different reasons, but you have to be washed.

Andy Griess
That's something that if you're listening today, you should understand, if you read that list and you go, oh, that's me. That does not have to be you forever. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us. Jesus' sacrifice was a full and complete payment for every sin. Those who trust in him are forgiven fully and freely. And in Him, we become the righteousness of God. The people in that first group who have been washed, it's not that they behave better. It's not that they did something differently. It's that they recognize their sin. They recognize, "I don't want to be this anymore Jesus.

If you can change me, if you can make me new, if you can give me your righteousness, I will have whatever you can give. I'm trusting you to do what you say you can do." And simply by that choice to put your trust in Jesus, everything changes, you are made new. You're forgiven completely. And so even today, if you've never, ever, ever recognized your sin, turned in faith to Jesus, you would be in the one category this moment. And the moment you put your faith in Jesus guaranteed, 100% that you are with Christ forever because you're washed in his blood. And it's an awesome thing. I'm so glad that at one point in my life, my grandmother shared that message with me. And from that day on, I've never been perfect, but I've known that in God's eyes. I'm perfect, and my place is secure. That first part of that is talking about me. Not because of anything I did.

Jeff Banks
And you can add to that, Andy, the other side of that, if you look at the list and say, I'm not any of those, and you think that you're righteous, your righteousness is not good enough, even if you don't think, I'm good, I'm not any of those things. And you're clinging to some righteousness that you think is enough. I mean, that's the whole book of Romans, right?

Bruce Peterson
Like there's the comparison is not--there's no righteousness. People who don't do these things and people who do, don't, that's not the comparison. Right? There's washed people and people who are still dirty. Why were the people washed in the first place? They were dirty. You don't wash clean things. Exactly. They're washed.

Jeff Banks
But yeah, I think that's the requirement of we need--there's righteousness, right? That's his perfect righteousness. That's his gift. That's Romans and it's credited to our account. And so that's the hope of the gospel that, you can have the assurance that you're going to enjoy this life because you've been washed.

Bruce Peterson
So, to sum up, so all that is super important. The big idea, and this is though this is a wrap up. So, it's not redefining the details of the city on the new planet, no sinners on the new planet. Yeah. No sinners anywhere in this whole category, the details are here. This is a broad story wrap up, insiders, outsiders, washed people, and people who haven't been washed yet. And that's the big story, right? Is that right?

Jeff Banks
That's the big story. And to Andy's point, if you find yourself, whether it's, because of you recognizing your own sin or thinking you're too righteous, the offer to be washed is there.

Bruce Peterson
The last verses? So let's just do it right. Then go to the very end of the book. And what's it say? Well you have got come? All who are thirsty, come. The one who wishes to take the free gift of the water of life, come that's right. There's the offer, right? This is for you. Are you thirsty? Can we get a drink?

Andy Griess
Ah love it.

Bruce Peterson
Dirty? Yeah? Jesus categorically washes feet. Jesus is the cleanser.

How Can God Be A Trinity? - Ask The Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Brad Kilthau, Gary Hashley, and Tim Hebbert.

Tim Hebbert

So we're gonna talk a little bit about this - what does it mean that God is a Trinity? And you know, I tell my young teenagers in classes, the first rule when we start talking about God is that He's not human. We can't place any human attributes on Him, because if we do that the concept of the Trinity is almost impossible to fathom. And in truth, it really is kind of hard to wrap our minds around it. Anyway, let's just dig into this and see where the Lord takes us this morning. What is the Trinity? How do we find that? That's the one true God who lives eternally in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I listened to a pastor talk about it and I love the statement he made. He said, "God has been in relationship with Himself for all of eternity." And I guess that's maybe the best way that we can really describe that. What is that relationship? Well, it's a loving relationship that binds and fuses them together as one God existing within three separate persons. So it's hard to understand, but the foundation of everything we believe and who we are as followers of Jesus Christ starts with that foundation of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and His word. God doesn't waste any time in sharing with us who He is.

One of the things I love about studying the Old Testament is He reveals Himself through His names. But He makes a statement in Genesis 1:26 where He begins to share, as I like to put it, that "one of a kind nature" because it can't be duplicated, it can't be imitated. Only God can be existing as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But He says in verse 26, "Then God said, 'Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness'." So He immediately goes into a plurality of who He is as one person. And throughout the Old Testament, each one of them is found and revealed in different scriptures here and there, but in that moment He doesn't define Himself as a triune God. But He does say "I have more attributes than you can fathom in one person." Numbers 23:19 says, "God is not human that He should lie, not a human being that He should change his mind. Does He speak and then not act, does He promise and not fulfill?" We're defining early on in scripture who God the Father is. Isaiah 7 tells us this, it's one of those iconic passages that reveals who Jesus is before He comes into the world. Verse 14 says, "Therefore, the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the Virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Emmanuel," which we know means God with us. And in the second verse of Genesis 1, we're already introduced to the holy spirit, it says, "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."

Then when we get into the New Testament, Jesus begins to teach us about the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. And then Paul really lays out the doctrine of how each one of these separate persons in the Godhead. But Jesus has revealed in His baptism, as the atmosphere parts you can see the glory of heaven, the Holy Spirit. And then the father says, "That's my son, the One that I am well pleased in." Later on at His transfiguration, we see the Holy Spirit come in the form of a cloud as Moses and Elijah nestled down into that transfiguration of who Jesus is. And then again, we hear the voice of the Father say to Peter James and John, paraphrasing a little bit, "That's my Son, listen to him." But I love this scripture. And in Romans 8, when Paul is defining the Holy Spirit He gives us that Trinity, starting with verse nine He says, "You however are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if in fact the spirit of God dwells in you, anyone who does not have the spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. If the spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His spirit that dwells in you." So Paul in those three verses gives us an image of the working agreement, so to speak, between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now Gary, there's a lot of error out there when we try to apply human conditions to that, so why don't you speak to that.

Gary Hashley

Well in Mark 12, Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy and says, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord Your God, with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. There are groups out there that say we are monotheists, we believe in one God. And I say, "Well, I'm a monotheist too, but I'm a monotheist who realizes scripture teaches that we have one God but we have three persons who make up that God. And each one, the Father is God, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is just as much God as the Father, the Spirit is just as much God as Jesus and the Father, and Jesus isn't the Father, and the Father isn't the Spirit, the Spirit isn't Jesus. Some of those errors come because we try and wrap our heads around a concept too big for our brains. Some people believe we must have three gods. And that's what other religions would say, "We're monotheists and you're plural theists. You believe in three gods." No, we don't, but even though we say we don't believe in three gods, there are those who really struggle with that. They go round and round and round with that. And one of the problems is that if you've got three gods, someone's going to want to be king of the hill. And yet we don't find that, we find unity and we find cooperation. You look through the scriptures and you don't find that the members of the Godhead, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, are arguing over who gets top billing.

Another error that comes up - I had a guy in the first church I pastored come to me, he had a friend who had some interesting ideas about the Bible and about God. He came to me one day and he says, "I was talking to my friend and my friend told me that Jesus is less than the Father, that the Father is the big God. And Jesus is sort of a lesser God." And I said to Jack, "Well that's interesting, because Jesus said, " I and my father are One." Jack said, "I can't wait to go tell my friend because he missed that somewhere." How could they be one if Jesus was the less than the Father?

Another error that can come up, and I heard this from an adult Sunday school class in a church in southern Michigan where one of the deacons of the church was teaching the class. And he said, "Let me explain the Trinity to all of you. The trinity is like this - God gets up in the morning, and some days He puts on His God the Father suit, and He does God the father stuff. And then another day He might get up, assuming God sleeps, He might get up and put on His Jesus outfit, and He goes and does Jesus things. And then there are times where it's more appropriate when God gets up and puts on His Holy Spirit costume." And so He pictured this as God having three different outfits, and whatever day the One God had on either His God the Father suit or His God the Son suit or His Holy Spirit suit. There are a lot of errors out there, and some of it is because we really want to understand it. And I don't fault people for wanting to understand, because I want to understand. People trying to explain the Trinity, like it's like an egg, with the shell and the white part of the egg and the yolk being part of the egg. And that sort of helps us think through it a little, but the shell isn't the yolk and the yolk isn't the white and they're not coequal or coeternal. So, you know, any explanation that I've heard people come up with always comes up a little short of the perfections of the Trinity. But Pastor Brad, tell us why it matters.

Brad Kilthau

I think something you brought earlier is that anytime we do any teaching, especially on the doctrine of scripture, we have to ask why does that matter? How does it help me out? And the truth that God has triune is of utmost importance because it impacts our lives in several ways. One of those ways is through authentic worship. Since God has revealed Himself to us as triune, the Bible says in John 4:23 that we are to worship God in spirit and truth. And we cannot truly worship Him apart from regarding who he really is. And so it is good that when we worship Him, we comprehend what that means when we talked about our God is a triune God. I think even more importantly, the Trinity is vital for salvation. For our salvation to be possible, there needed to be a perfect sacrifice of infinite value to pay for the sins of the world, and if Jesus is anything less than fully and eternally God and He had limitations, that would prevent Him from accomplishing the work that we needed for Him to do on the cross and the resurrection. And when you think about our salvation, in scriptures the Father initiated salvational work, the Son completed the salvation to work in the cross, and it's the Holy Spirit who opens up our understanding and even gives us the ability to believe in the work of Christ. So all persons in the One God are vital in our salvation. And then there's also the thought about a healthy and personal relationship with the Father and the Son and the Spirit. We need to accept and embrace the fullness of God as it's been revealed to us in the scriptures. You can't ignore that, just as you were saying, it's all throughout the scriptures that he is a triune God. You can't throw that away and then have a intimate relationship with Him.

I think about this too - we need to get into the throne room of the Father. We want to go to the throne room to speak to the Father, well who makes that possible? Well Jesus opens the door and allows us there. And then it's the Holy Spirit that gives us the ability to even speak because we don't even know what to say and how to say it in the presence of the Father. So in order to have a healthy relationship we need this triune God of ours. And here's a fourth one that I was thinking about as I was contemplating this question - without the belief that our God is triune, there's a personal relationship problem for us as believers, because Christian relationships are to be modeled after and reflect the perfect unity and love that exists between the three Persons of the Trinity. Just as Jesus said as he was praying for the church in John 17, he said, "that all my followers may be one, Father, just as You are in Me and I in You, and that they may be one (speaking of the church) as We are One, I in them and You in me." And so when we think about our God who is love, there's this eternal active love that's always gone on among the Trinity Persons, infinite love, even before we were created. And so we're to reflect that kind of love for one another, and we're commanded to do that in Philippians 2:2, it says, "Being like-minded having the same love, being in one spirit and of one mind." And so it even affects our relationship as we look at our God and understand who He is and how we can relate to one another.

And so really the doctrine of the Trinity is a precious truth. And I know it blows our minds when we think about it, we have to sit back and go, "How can that be? I can't understand it." I think as you were saying Gary, we make a big mistake if we try to bring it down to some analogy that we can all comprehend - we can't comprehend all of our God. He's above who we are, but it is good to sit back and think about our triune God, because again it shows us how amazing He is and how wonderful and magnificent He is. And so it's a practical truth that should impact the lives of us Christians in a lot of different ways. So this is a good question, a good one to think about and constantly thinking about as believers in Jesus Christ.

Why Will There Be No Marriage in Heaven? - Ask The Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Poole and Gary Schick.

Ben Poole

So our question this morning comes from a listener who says, "I heard a guy once share how angry he was that he would not be married to his wife in heaven. He was so angry that he did not want to go to heaven if he could not be married to his wife. Why will there be no marriage in heaven? What will be our relationship with family members when we get to heaven?" So Gary, if you want to go ahead and kick us off on this.

Gary Schick

Well I'm glad it wasn't specifically our listener who was angry about this. I think it kind of reflects culturally where we're at, Christian and non-Christian alike. Heaven isn't a place we've been, we haven't been to the other side, and so we tend to imagine it on our own terms. I think so many don't even think of God when they think of the next life to come, they just sort of think of it as an extension of this life, only better, and it's very self-centered - you know, here's what I want and it's going to be me and whatever. That's not exactly the picture that's painted for us. I can tell you, regardless of what it's like, you don't not want to be in heaven. This scriptural picture of not being in heaven is outer darkness, weeping, gnashing of teeth, eternal fire, separation from God. If you don't want to be with God, well, you won't be, but you won't be with anyone else either.

There was an old country song years back about hell being some kind of a drunken party or something, and it ain't going to be, there's no fellowship there. But the question, "Why won't there be marriage? What will our relation to others be?" The question really is coming from Matthew 22:30, and this is Jesus talking, he is answering the question of the Sadducees who didn't believe in an afterlife. So they were kind of mocking him and saying, "So suppose there was this guy who was married and he died?" And in those days in order to carry on the family line, if your brother died you were supposed to marry his wife and carry on the family line. And so they just came up sort of with this mocking idea where there's seven brothers and each one is married to this woman and nobody has children with her in the resurrection. Who is whose wife, whose husband will be hers, right? And by the way, the Sadducees didn't even believe in the whole Old Testament. They only took the first five books, the books of Moses, his scripture. And so Jesus just narrows his focus to what they understand and what they believe. And He says, "God said not 'I was the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob' but 'I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob'," and in the very books that the Sadducees called scripture, it's indicating they are still very much alive and in God's presence, and yes, there is an afterlife.

But He even answers their question, ridiculous as it is, and says, "At the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. They will be like the angels in heaven." Well, this has led to some confusion. You often hear people talking about heaven, talking about getting our wings like we're going to become angels, like that's sort of the next evolution or something, right? That is not a scriptural picture either. We don't become angels, there's no reference in scripture that would identify that we're going to sprout wings. We are going to be what we are in a glorified state, but we will have a similarity in the sense that angels do not marry. They're not given in marriage. They don't procreate, and neither will we - we will go into heaven in a fixed form. That said, are we going to? From scripture's perspective, as a believer in Jesus, we're going on to something pretty wonderful. 1 John 3:2 says, "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." The first goal of heaven is to be with the Savior, to be in Jesus' presence, the One who died for our sins and loved us. There can be nothing more glorious than that. But it is natural to ask the question, "What about my loved ones who are saved? Will I see them again? Will we know each other?"

Here's some things that scripture says, going way back to Father Abraham in the Old Testament, the death of Abraham is described in this way. "Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years, and he was gathered to his people." Genesis 25:8, "He was gathered to his people." Other people whose death is described as "gathered to his people" include Ishmael in Genesis 25:17, Isaac in Genesis 35:29, Jacob in Genesis 49:33, Moses' brother Aaron in Numbers 20:24, and even Moses in Numbers 27:13. And so related to this is the idiom found in Genesis 15:15, where God tells Abraham, "You shall go to your fathers in peace, you shall be buried in a good old age." So is He just talking about kind of a way of speaking about death, or is He actually saying something more about rejoining those who have gone before? There are several ways that the scripture describes it - lie down or rest with your fathers, go to your ancestors, go to your people, and rest with your fathers.

Similarly in 2 Samuel 12:23, King David lost a son, and you can go back and read the story behind that, it was very tragic. This child, this first child between him and Bathsheba dies in infancy. And as the child was sick and dying David mourned, he fasted, he prayed. He pled with God for the child's life so much so that when the child died his servants were afraid that he might take his own life. So finally David says, "Is the child dead?" "Yes," they respond. And he goes and washes himself, and he sits down and he eats, and they're confused. And David says, "Well now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." David had a sense of peace that he would go to that child, and David also in the Psalms speaks about God bringing him himself back. Job said, "I will see my Redeemer in my flesh, see Him with my own eyes." So there was a confidence in an afterlife, and there was a confidence not only of going to be with God, but going to be with those who've gone before.

So can we trust that believing family, parents, children, spouses, even though we're not in a married state, that we're going to have relationships and be together with the Lord? Absolutely. In fact, what does it say about the rapture? We, not individually, but we together will meet the Lord in the air. And then finally for my part, one of my favorite passages kind of talking about the heaven to come, Hebrews 12:23 talks about how "Through faith, we have been brought together with the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven. To God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect." All of this is in the new Jerusalem, which apparently already awaits us. "The souls of righteous individuals already made complete, made perfect in Christ." That's what's waiting for us on the other side. So first and foremost, I am looking forward to meeting the Lord. But do I anticipate seeing my dad who's gone before me, my grandparents, other loved ones, cousins who've gone on in Christ? Absolutely. And do I kind of look forward on the streets of gold to brushing shoulders with the apostle Paul and asking him some questions, and asking Adam and Eve, "By the way, did you have belly buttons?" and all those weird questions? Yeah, I can't wait.

Ben Poole

Yeah, and I think that's a good perspective he gave on discussing what it's going to be like. Are we going to know people when we see him? I agree, I think we will, there's enough scripture to back it up. Even if we didn't, I'm not sure we would care once we're there.

Gary Schick

It's going to be pretty great.

Ben Poole

But I think it's something to understand that there's a difference between what takes place in this life and the next. As the church and as Christians become the bridegroom of Christ, that is a marriage that takes place in Christ. And I was thinking about what heaven would be like, because I can understand, I love my wife more than any other person on earth, and it's hard to think about not being married to her at some point. But if our focus is on that, I think we're missing something beautiful. Regarding the book of Revelation, I know a lot of people live in fear over it and they really dive in to find secret hidden messages. And I don't think that's ever necessary because I've never believed that God desires to confuse us people. I think He wants to point us to Himself. And I think He does that really well in Revelation.

As John sees this revelation, this message, what are the people doing in heaven? Or the beasts or the creatures that God has created, what are they doing? One of them in Revelation 4:8, "Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under His wings. Day and night they never stopped saying, 'Holy holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come. Whenever the living creatures give glory honor and thanks to Him who sit on the throne and who lives forever, and ever. The twenty four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and they worship Him who lives forever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say, 'You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power'." Another passage from chapter 7 in Revelation, this great multitude comes before God. They have branches in their hands, "And they cry out, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne and to the Lamb.' And all the angels are standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, they fell down on their faces before the throne, and they worshiped God saying, 'Amen, praise and glory and wisdom, and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever, amen'." And it goes on and on and on throughout the whole book of Revelation that there's going to be a time when we go to see God. And I think you nailed it really well right off the bat. We often think of heaven - not about God, but about us, right? Heaven is the glory of God, I'm not sure we're going to care about anything else.

Gary Schick

There's going to be tons of praise, and it's going to be heartfelt. It's not going to be, "Oh, we've got to praise the Lord some more."

Ben Poole

We're going to fully understand salvation at that point, because we're saved now but we're still in the midst of sin and suffering. Just like we see on the news in Afghanistan and the suffering that's taking place at the hands of other people, and Haiti, the total destruction and death, it's everywhere right? And this is going to be the perfect absence of all darkness. There is no darkness, there is only light, there's only God, there are only God's people. And I remember as a kid thinking, 'Man, just sitting there singing to God sounds like a really long eternal church service.' It is so much more powerful and better there. Your desire will be to praise God forever because of what He has done.

Gary Schick

It'll be like when you're climbing a mountain and it just gets more glorious as you go on, you know?

Ben Poole

It'll never get old. It'll never die down. It's going to be one heck of a party.

Gary Schick

And the new Jerusalem is described as an incredibly spacious place, but it is a city where we will be together with our God. Our God is a God of relationship, He's the father, Son, and Spirit, He's created us for relationship. So if there's a fear that we will be lonely or something, no, there will be that relationship. We will reach a level of connectedness and depth and intimacy that you can't even in any way achieve in this life. But it will be different, but that's okay. One caution: Listeners, never say 'I don't want to be in heaven'. That is really a wish you don't want to follow through on.

Ben Poole

You may not want to be in heaven because you won't be married, but you're not going to be any more married in hell either. You are alone and suffering forever.

Gary Schick

God's not gonna suffer if we reject Him. We're the only ones that stand to lose. The gates are open, Jesus has paid a horrific price to welcome you home.

Ben Poole

It's going to be worth it.

Gary Schick

Let Him love you. Let Him embrace you.

What Does The Bible Say About Cremation? - Ask The Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors
Jeff Banks, Andy Griess and Bruce Peterson.

Jeff Banks

Well, we've got a question on the table. I think this is a question that we've maybe been asked pastorally that's come up a number of times. Um, so the question is about cremation. What does the Bible say about that? How should believers view cremation? I think some of this is driven from the increasing popularity of cremation. I think it's cheaper. Yeah.

Bruce Peterson

It's still way more money than you expect it to be, but it's still cheaper than the burial process.

Jeff Banks

Right. So we want to talk about this and lay this out on the table, what does Scripture say and how do we approach it? Certainly when we look at the reality of death and the decay of our bodies, the gospel is built on the hope of bodily resurrection, right? So this is the great hope of 1 Corinthians 15 Christ is the first fruits, so He's leading the way and is the hope of the gospel for Christians for all who believe in him, that when they die their their body will be resurrected from the grave. So does cremation impact that?

Bruce Peterson

So let's first deal with the dispersement of the molecules, so to speak. If you're in a grave, you're all in one place. And if the resurrection happens and you've only been in there 500 years, you might even have some bones. They're there, but you're all in one spot. So what would the Bible say simply about dispersement? Are there any passages that would suggest God doesn't have a problem with dispersement?

Jeff Banks

We talked about a passage in Revelation 20. I think it hits it. So in Revelation 20, we've got this passage that says "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them."

Bruce Peterson

So the pit and even the seas. So what happens if you throw a dead body in the sea?

Jeff Banks

It's going to decompose and get eaten.

Bruce Peterson

It's gonna get eaten and turned into fish food.

Jeff Banks

Yeah, kind of come back out.

Bruce Peterson

It's going to be dispersed. And this goes, this is the final judgment you're reading, right? So this goes back to Adam and Eve. So all the bodies that have died at sea, God can pull them all back out. So disbursement can't be a concern. You have to let that continue.

Jeff Banks

If you have a loved one that's cremated and you disperse their ashes over a cliff or some favorite place, not a problem for God to miraculously gather them.

Bruce Peterson

No, not at all. Okay. So disbursement can't be an issue. So then what about fire? Hm. What passage would you go to there?

Jeff Banks

We talked earlier about how there are places in the Scripture where there were bodies that were burned, and there was some kind of a negative context.

Bruce Peterson

There's some negative consequences to the picture-

Jeff Banks

-but no real prohibition against that.

Bruce Peterson

No prohibition, but I would go to Hebrews and I know it's not in there, but I would still go there because the author is pulling to mind the Christian heroes, right?

Andy Griess

The hall of faith, yeah.

Bruce Peterson

This is speaking of people who lived by faith, right? These are the heroes, the real champions. There were others who were tortured. One of ways you'd be tortured would be,

Jeff Banks

You could get burned at the stake.

Bruce Peterson

Burned at the stake, right? So people are tortured. They're burned at the stake, refusing to be released so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some of them face jeers and floggings, chains, imprisonment. They were put to death by stoning, they were sawed in two, killed by the sword. We know that they were fed to lions again, they're torn apart and eaten. These are the heroes. God goes on to say that the world isn't worthy of them. The Bible doesn't seem to in any way want to shame our Bible heroes because of the way they died. Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego speaks to this issue, right? He's going to throw them into a furnace and in a voice that says, "I want to honor God", what did they say to Nebuchadnezzar? You know the answer, it's not a trick question. "Throw us in, throw us in. God might save us. He might not. Either way, we're not going to bow down to your idol, but I'm going to honor God by being willing to go into the furnace." That's a pretty big deal.

Andy Griess

And I think a lot of this concern over "Is burial the proper way for us to dispose of a Christian's body?", a lot of it goes back to what you read in the Old Testament, about Joseph being concerned that his bones be taken back to be buried with this father. And over and over and over people who were given a proper honoring at their death, they keep saying they were buried with their fathers, they were buried with etc. And you hear that often enough in the Old Testament you begin to think maybe burial is, that's just the way it's supposed to be done. And I don't know, looking through the Scriptures, there's just the sense that we are body and spirit. Those things cannot be separated, people are body and spirit. And when we die, our spirit is separated from our body. But because there's a resurrection, that's just temporary. There's going to be a body and spirit together for all of eternity. So then the question begins, how do we give dignity to that body that was left behind when death comes? And the idea of burying someone with their fathers, that's their way of saying they gave them a proper burial, they were honored.

Bruce Peterson

They were honored in death, agreed.

Andy Griess

And so the question goes to burial or cremation. If the intent is to honor that body, is there one way that has to be done or are these two just different options? We definitely want to honor it, but there's two different ways of doing it. And it's so hard to put together any real specific biblical information because there's no passage you're going to look to that says "here's how".

Bruce Peterson

The Bible never tells us how to do it or how to honor the death. It's implied that if you love them, honor them, but God doesn't give us directive on that.

Jeff Banks

I mean, it certainly seems in the Jewish context that the preferred best way to honor was burial, right?

Bruce Peterson

But even their burial is going to be different than our burial here in Nebraska, or burial in Louisiana, everyone's above ground because the water's too high. Joseph was mummified, which is why it says that he's mummified. We might find his mummy someday. He can be taken out 450 years later. He's probably still a pretty young mummy, right? He probably looks pretty much like himself 400 years later. So that's not "burial" in terms of a Nebraska burial. Even the word has a pretty wide ranging definition of what it means be buried. And I would think in a euphemistic way, even the Nordics, when they would do the funeral pyre they would probably say "We buried him with his fathers". You know what I mean? I think that's more than a procedural specific thing.

Jeff Banks

So 1 Corinthians has some good places that highlight this, this is 1 Corinthians 15. "Someone may ask, how are the dead raised? What kind of body will they come? What you sow does not come back to life unless it dies when you sow, you did not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of the weed or something else. But God gives it a body as he determined. And to each kind, he gives seed to each his own body. All flesh is not the same. Men have a kind of flesh, animals have another."

Bruce Peterson

This is a seed. This is a shell. It's a hint of what's to come, right? You don't put in a corn seed and get an apple tree, you get a corn plant. It's the same family of things, but it's different. That's his point, right?

Jeff Banks

Yeah, definitely. And when he gets to the end, he says, "I declare to you brothers that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." So we're going to have these imperishable bodies resurrected, but flesh, right? Like you said, we're not going to be floating around in heaven as these disembodied spirits, right? There's going to be a bodily resurrection. And this is what we want to cling to.

Bruce Peterson

It's a mystery.

Jeff Banks

This is a mystery. I think that the essence of the miracle and the beauty and glory of bodily resurrection is a mystery to us, but not impossible for God.

Bruce Peterson

And I would say that the point is that it's a wonderful mystery. There might be the odd person who wants their human body back, but I don't know anyone that actually wants that, like "I can't wait to be taller. I can't wait to be thinner. I can't wait to be younger. I can't wait to be fit." What we are saying is, we want to be ourselves, but we're gonna be pretty cool with some physical perfections. I want to be similar and different. And Paul says, "Guess what? You're going to be similar and different," but in a better way than you could imagine.

Andy Griess

Yeah. I think about the mystery of how God from nothing created everything, and built us with a soul and a body together, and scientists can't even describe what a consciousness is and how it is. We don't even have the answers to that with all the technology that we have. We can't figure out the mystery of how God put it all together and that God, at the end of time, when it's time for our final resurrection, to be able to put together perfect bodies, imperishable bodies, he's going to have no trouble with that.

Bruce Peterson

And He did it all with a word the first time. He's going to have no trouble. So no worries, but we don't believe the Bible prescribes how to bury someone in a proper way.

Andy Griess

I'm glad this question came up because it's one that a lot of people have. And it's one that some people just agonize about, because my grandpa was cremated and I heard a comment about something to do with where my grandpa's soul was, and you can be troubled about it. As a pastor, what I want to say is - you search the scripture and you're not going to find anything in here that's going to indicate that cremation has any impact on this person's soul. And if it did, if it was that monumental, something would be told to us. Because we're arguing so much from silence, I think it's a non-issue.

Bruce Peterson

God left it silent on purpose. What does your culture do with their dead? Every culture has a way to honor the dead or disgrace the dead. Honor them, definitely honor them, but whatever that way is is neutral because the resurrection and being in Christ is the only worry until you die. There'll be a miracle, a mystery, a wonderful change, and the seed will turn into the fruit. Man, trust that. That's the important bit.

Jeff Banks

Yeah, I don't think cremation would put any of that in jeopardy.

Bruce Peterson

So if you died, do you want your wife to cremate you or bury you?

Jeff Banks

You know, that's a good question. I think she... I don't even know if she's told me what she wants, I don't think we've talked about it.

Bruce Peterson

Wow, there you go. How about you? You want to be buried or cremated?

Andy Griess

I think I prefer to be buried, but at different times when I was more cheap in my life, there was a time where I thought maybe I was going to be cremated because I just want to make it cheaper. You know, you say you could go at any time, but I must not truly be expecting to go at anytime because I'm not wrestling with that.

Bruce Peterson

So I don't want to make light of it, but I do at the same time. So we buried my son, but we had him cremated. The tiniest part of the idea was that if we had his ashes, the dead in Christ are raised first, so we'd get a clue at the resurrection because he would start moving before we did. Sure. So here's what I want now - I would like to be cremated and have my ashes kind of mixed with his, and we'll go together.

Andy Griess

There you go!

Bruce Peterson

You know, my wife can be in the jar too, all three of us. So put us all in together and then we'll let Jesus sort it all out. That's our trust and our hope.

Should Christians Support The Death Penalty? - Ask The Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Mike Clement and David Clement.

Mike Clement

The question was asked: There's been a lot of discussion on the death penalty. It appears that the Bible supports the death penalty, but Christians seem that seem to differ on their opinions of it. So the best thing that we can do is go back to God's Word and find out what God's Word has to say about it. I'm gonna turn to Genesis 9 beginning with verse 5. And this is where God is speaking to Noah after flood is over and Noah and his family are coming out of the Ark. It says, "Then surely the blood of your lives will I require, at the hand of every beast will I require it. At the hand of man, at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God made He man." And so here we've got the foundational text that is used by believers to support the concept of the death penalty. It's an Old Testament teaching, but just because it's in the Old Testament doesn't mean that it's of no value. Jesus oftentimes referred to the law (the Old Testament) and we believe today that we're not under the bondage of the law as believers. But we are underneath all of scripture, since scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. So here's this raging debate. And oftentimes people that raise the issue of the death penalty are professed to be Christians, and they don't believe in it, Dave. What are some of the things that you've heard?

David Clement

I've heard many times over the years the statement that is found in The Ten Commandments and that is "Thou shalt not kill". You hear people say that when they're picketing the death penalty or a death sentence, oftentimes there's a sign that states "Thou shalt not kill". And what that's referring to murder, and again as Genesis pointed out, we are created in the image of God. And that's why there's the death penalty for a person that took another person's life, they committed murder, so their life was required of them. And that's what God stated. We see specifically when we go back to the beginning of creation where God created a man and female, and He created them in the image of Himself. And so that's the uniqueness there. We are totally unique to all the other beings that are here on Earth because the animals and the fish and the birds, they were not created in the image of God, but we human beings are. And so to strike out and murder somebody, as that passage says, is to strike out against the image of God.

Mike Clement

Okay, so what do we do with other things like war, what's the difference? Is there a difference between the death penalty from the government and somebody taking the life of another person and committing murder?

David Clement

The passage that you read there in Genesis, those six or nine verses, that was before government was established. That was right after the flood. It wasn't until later on that governments were established, that God Himself established them. And so He gave the governments rights and authorities in different areas to govern and to protect people, to make sure things were run properly. And one of the authorities that He gave them was the death penalty, and to be able to judge and to cast those things upon them. But police officers, soldiers, military, those all have the backing of the authority of the government behind them. That doesn't mean they can abuse it in any way, and there are definitely those that do, but they do have the authority of the government. And so they have that authority backing them as when they are carrying out those duties - if that's necessary to take another person's life, they're doing it under the authority of the government.

Mike Clement

I'd like to just share a couple of other verses. Now we're talking about the New Testament, Acts 25. This is where the Paul has been arrested, and actually he was arrested because he was falsely accused and he spent a fair amount of time in prison and eventually ended up in Rome itself. Paul is giving his defense, he says in verse 10 "Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgement seat where I ought to be judged to the Jews. Have I done no wrong, as they're very well know us. For if I be an offender or have committed anything worthy of death, I refuse not to die, but if there be none of these things where have these accused me, no man may deliver me unto them I appeal unto Caesar. So you've got a number of things here. The apostle Paul actually had a number of confrontations with those that were his accusers. They couldn't really prove anything. And in fact, in one place they were plotting to have him transferred to another venue and then murder him along the way. So if his enemies were confident that he had done something worthy of death, then they could have just gone through the court procedure, but they wouldn't do that. They were going to kill him, they were going to murder him. And finally the apostle Paul, having gone through all these things and jumping through all these hoops, he says, "I appeal to Caesar." And what he did was he used his right as a Roman citizen. And Dave, you and I both are well aware that we live in a day and age where all kinds of people talk about their rights, but they don't talk about the responsibilities. And here the apostle Paul has both. He says, "If I'm guilty of something worthy of death, then so be it. I won't appeal that. But if I'm innocent, then I should have a trial and I should be found innocent." So here you've got submitting to authority and yet at the same time acknowledging that government has the right to do that.

I'd like to read another passage in Romans 13. It talks about being subject to higher powers, and certainly government is involved in this. And I'm going to begin reading with verse 1 but then go down to verse 4, it says, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers, for there is no power but of God, the powers that be are ordained of God, whosoever therefore resisteth the power of government resisteth the ordinance of God, and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation, for rulers are not a terror to good works but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power, do that which is good. And thou shall have praise of the same, for he has a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid, for ye beareth not the sword in vain, for he is a minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that do with evil." So this passage talks about the Christian's responsibility to be underneath the authority of the government and to submit to that authority. And in that passage, there's a number of places where it refers to those that are in authority as ministers of God. In verse 1 it talks about them being ordained, in verse 4 twice it refers to them as being a minister of God. And in that context it says to be afraid if you've done evil, for he bears not the sword in vain. And that reference to the sword is punishment up to and including the death penalty. So what you said there, David, there are certain responsibilities that are given to people and there are other responsibilities that are given to governments and they don't necessarily overlap.

Now we live in a fairness age, and that's not the way that we operated. We didn't have favorites, but you know at different stages of our family life we were able to do different things. And likewise in the ministry of our church and in all churches, there are duties and responsibilities of leadership, there are duties and responsibilities of members, and there are duties and responsibilities of anybody who walks through the door. Anybody who walks through the door needs to behave themselves. If they don't they're going to get escorted out. In many churches today, because we've got all these horrible things that have taken place where children have been abused, many churches and ours included have a protection policy, whereby if somebody wants to work with children in our church, they have to be a member. So they've submitted themselves to the authority of our church, and we do a background check, we find out if there's something in their background that would make it unwise to use them. And part of this we do because of what the government requires. So there's this whole area of submitting to the government, and the government has the authority to be able to execute people. In fact, there's even a duty or responsibility there - it's nice to say, well, you know, we're just going to be merciful and we're going to put somebody in prison for the rest of their life. The fact of the matter is they end up getting released, and a great number of times they end up being repeat offenders and take the life of somebody else. And that could have been taken care of if the death penalty was actually carried out.

David Clement

One other thing, too, along those lines. Sometimes we think of the death penalty as something that's only used if somebody has done the worst murder imaginable. But if we look, that's not exactly what we see in scripture. I mean, the Lord had much more lenient standards for sins that could be punishable by the death penalty. Murder was not the only thing that was punishable by death. The bottom line is the scripture does teach the death penalty. And it's not simply just for murderers. Most people in the country would admit that if somebody has taken somebody else's life, that they've forfeited their rights. That's even being argued in the courts right now and in some circles as well, but the fact of the matter is God in His word said not only someone who murdered, but in many other instances, God had the death penalty in placed for other sins and crimes that were committed there.

How Do We Handle Conflict Biblically? - Ask The Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Tyson Lambertson, John Mulholland, Jon Simpson, and Kiley Callaway.

Tyson Lambertson

We've been discussing this idea of conflict, and we know that conflict is healthy but conflict also can create some problems. So we want to look at a biblical view of what it takes to manage healthy conflict and walk through conflict, because so often I know that I haven't dealt well with conflict. So let's look at what the Bible says about conflict.

John Mulholland

Yeah, so this is a Ephesians 4:25-32. "So stop telling lies. Let us tell our neighbors the truth for we are all parts of the same body and don't let sin and don't sin by letting anger control you. Don't let the sun go down while you were still angry for anger gives a foothold to the devil. If you're a thief, quit stealing. Instead, use your hands for good hard work, and then give generously to others in need. Don't use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say, be good and helpful so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them. And do not bring sorrow to God's holy spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of you will behavior. Instead be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you."

Tyson Lambertson

So conflict is something that we all deal with as individuals, as human beings, and conflict can be healthy, but it can also be very, very divisive. And that's what Satan wants - he wants to create conflict that separates relationships. Why do we struggle with it so bad? Why do we not handle conflict well?

John Mulholland

I think the primary reason is that we don't know what good healthy conflict looks like. I don't know how any of you guys grew up in your homes, but I did not really see conflict modeled well by my parents. I saw arguing, I saw those kinds of things taking place. So I did not have a model for how husbands and wives were supposed to talk to one another, or any kind of healthy model of conflict. I just didn't see that when I was growing up.

Jon Simpson

Yeah, I think that plays into it. One of the things that I have seen and had to work through is that we all have things that we tell ourselves, sort of storylines that we live by. And one of them is that I've kind of uncovered in my life was the idea that conflict is bad. So if you believe that it comes from somewhere, like you said, either the way we were raised, or maybe it was getting into fights in junior high, or a conflict that would lead to a physical altercation, right? So somewhere in there is, I don't want to say a fear, but a belief that it's not going to go somewhere good. And so that can make us avoid it, or it can make us overreact and say, "I've gotta win every one of these". Whatever it is, I think some of it is just the belief that conflict equals destruction in some way. And we have reason to believe that, I've certainly seen that, but that's not what we see in the scriptures. I think it's one of those examples where we have to believe a different storyline. You know, we have to believe God's storyline.

Tyson Lambertson

And I think some of this comes to personalities as well. For me, my harmony button is as string finder of mine. I love harmony. And so when there's conflict, there's times when I will just do everything to avoid it and just hope that it goes away understanding that it's not going to go away, but wanting it to go away. And there's this tension of moving and not having a good model of saying, "How do you deal with conflict in a healthy way?" Because our natural tendency is to slander, to get people on our side, to get the coup, so to speak, and get them together so that we can, we can push our own agenda. And yeah, my conflict is better than my ways better than your way. And so conflict is, is part of our sinful nature. We need to learn how to deal with that better, what do you think Kiley?

Kiley Callaway

That's what I was going to say. As far as different personalities, some retreat, some want to just rile it up, some just want to talk it out. And I think with different personalities, it may sound like they're arguing but really they're just verbalizing their internal emotions and want to talk it out with you when some will receive that. Especially for me, like if I'm in something, I want to talk it out, I want to just vomit my emotions out there. And even in that, sometimes they think that maybe it's against them or it's meant to be hurtful towards them, when I'm just trying to share my heart and hash out what's going on inside of me so that the other person can understand where I'm coming from. Definitely the core is sin mixed in with our different personalities, and then peppered in there with how we were raised. So I think it's all of that - just kind of a crazy mixture of why we can't handle it.

Tyson Lambertson

Yeah. And I think 2 Timothy 2:24ish, dealing with false teachers, it says "Be gracious, be gentle, be kind." And that is so hard to do because usually in conflict somebody is being attacked, or the past comes up, or the age-old argument comes roaring back. And the main thing that you were in conflict about now is compiled with past hurts. So navigating conflict is not easy, and then as Christians we're called to deal with it in a biblical manner. And I think we see that in Matthew 18.

John Mulholland

And before we switch to that, you talked about things that have happened in the past. A lot of that is just unresolved issues. And I think we talked about that one of the very first series that we did for Ask The Pastor - whatever happened in the past among the churches in Scottsbluff, there's a pretty good chance that no one actually knows whatever that thing was that happened thirty, forty, fifty plus years ago between our churches or between the ways we believe, or doctrinal distinctives. By this point in history, all our people know is "I'm not supposed to like those Northfield people", or "I don't know what The Rock Church did fifteen or twenty years ago to deserve the break in their relationship. But I just know that when I hear The Rock, or I hear Mitchell Berean, or I hear Northfield, or you guys hear Westway, I just know that they're my enemy. And I couldn't tell you why I think that way. I know that I've held onto that even in my relationship with my wife, you know, when we bring up things that happened 15 years ago, because that was never actually resolved.

Tyson Lambertson

I think it does present some emotional baggage and some emotional underlying issues in us. I also think there's a cultural dynamic that we have to deal with in our own area, in that Scottsbluff was founded by Hiram Scott who was abandoned by his friends. And so this idea of abandonment comes in, where they're just like "We're not going to deal with the conflict. We're just going to leave it alone and walk away." I think there's some spiritual and cultural undertones that we deal with day in and day out that play into it. So it's not only relational, not only emotional, there's probably some culture there too.

Jon Simpson

I think one of the things that Berean Fellowship has looked at is family of origin issues related to how we handle things, because there are connections that we're not always aware of that play into things. What we're talking about here is kind of a generational thing or something that's sort of in the DNA or fabric of our culture, which I believe is real. And then I think our families have those kinds of things that get passed on. And sometimes that can be great stuff to our advantage, but there are issues in there that can also be a disadvantage to successfully navigating what we're supposed to do. We can have a tendency to handle things differently than, than what God says to do. I think it's good to understand ourselves and our region and our community, so as we attack this we have an adult view of it, an educated view of it. But to me, honestly, it comes down to, "What does God say we're supposed to do?" We were pulled out of a lifestyle that was pagan and godless and self-directed. And Paul is talking to the Ephesians about that, he starts off in Ephesians 4. "As a prisoner for the Lord, then I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you've received." He's going, "Guys, I'm pleading with you. You've been saved. You been redeemed, you're different people, you belong to Jesus. So live a life worthy of that." And I think there's areas of our life, and conflict's just one of them, where we have to kind of look in the mirror say, "Am I living a life worthy of the calling I received? Or am I living the way I want to?"

Tyson Lambertson

Yeah. And I think you're in that process of looking at the call. We know that God tells us to love him and to love our neighbors as ourselves. And sometimes we don't do that well, so there's unhealthy conflict, there's healthy conflict, and then there's church conflict that we all have to deal with and navigate. So Kylie, what's your thoughts on the conflict genealogy or the conflict direction? This is something that you've studied and understand.

Kiley Callaway

I don't know if I've studied it in the depth that you're saying, but I like what everybody's saying. I think what we're finding in the church, what we're finding in America, what we're finding with Christians is that it goes back to what you're originally said - we're supposed to be changed. I think in the church of America we have a lot of children by blood, but we have a lot of prodigal children, so we still have the habits of the hogs. And when we read this, it's talking about all of the habits of the hogs that we should be getting rid of that leads to conflict. Things like bitterness, things like anger, things like rage and slander and malice. I think if we look at the genealogy, it's all the spiritual issues that we never get up under the blood, so we still hang onto the habits of the hogs. We may be blood children, by blood adopted in, but he's pleading with us that we shouldn't be in conflict. We shouldn't be acting like this because we should be different people. And I think that's really where all conflict is birthed from - yes, it's family, it's cultural, but at the end of the day it's all spiritual.

Jon Simpson

So really specific, because you said that pretty quick, I just want to process that. You said the prodigal son went off to a distant land, he lived in rebellion and he ended up with the hogs. So you're saying he picked up habits there that were a result of his decision to rebel and to live in sin. And he was still a son, but you're saying that the kind of life he lived has consequences, or it has baggage to it that can be then brought into my Christian life. So what do you do? What's the answer to that?

Kiley Callaway

So if we look at Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and we see a lineage of the family - one son, one grandson, etc. But one thing about Abraham is he was a man of the altar, and I think that's where we as Christians have gotten away is death at the alter, something in us has to die. And I think even when we're with people and even if it's different personalities, I think what we have to do is listen, because like you said, I keep hearing the word, I've heard it three times now, attack, attack, attack. Anytime there's conflict we feel like it's attack, and our natural flesh tendency is to be defensive. And if we'll just learn how to let ourselves die in that moment and really listen to the person, I think we can have healthy resolution.

Tyson Lambertson

Right, it comes to our heart. And if we're lashing out and responding in negative ways or slandering, there's something wrong here. And I know that I've dealt with that, and I continue to deal with that. It's a daily surrender. It's a walk with the Lord.

How Do We Know That Christianity Is The One True Religion? - Ask The Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Poole and Gary Schick.

Ben Poole

So our question this morning is: "With all the religions in the world, how do you know that Christianity is the only true religion?" Excellent question. Gary, why don't you start us off.

Gary Schick

You know, this is an important one. I guess, in a sense, all of them are if somebody's asking it, but we have nailed our claim to Jesus in Christ alone, so you don't want to be wrong about that, right? You don't want to be sitting there on the Jesus plane when everybody's heading into heaven on something else and you're not right. So this is a great question. And of course, there's people with a lot of views out there, there's people who are going to say, you know, there's all kinds of ways to get there. And yet what really is stark about the Christian claim is actually Jesus said, "No, I am the way ,the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." So Christians really do need to make sure that what they believe is not only true, but the one and only way into heaven because it claims to be. So unlike other religions that maybe are a little lax and say, "Well, you can follow us for a while if you want, or try this or try that." And many do in the world, many have kind of patched together a patchwork of religions. We Christians, are we making a unique claim and how do we know it's true?

So I have three thoughts on this, and the first one I've actually just mentioned - Christianity's unique claims. Jesus himself makes some claims that others don't make. It's been a long time since my college years when I read a few other religious texts, I think I read the sayings of Confucius, the sayings of Buddha, and others. And there is some overlap there, there's some 'love your neighbor' type stuff. It makes sense that God has a moral law and that even people outside the faith can see the rightness of certain things, but only our God says "I am God and there is no other." The Canaanite gods were one of a zillion gods. Similarly Jesus says, "I am the Son of God. If you have seen the Father, you have seen me." Buddha doesn't say that about himself. He is kind of deified by his followers, but I don't even know that he claimed to be a deity. Confucius definitely didn't, he was kind of a philosopher. Mohammed claimed to be a prophet, Joseph Smith didn't claim to be God either. So just because Jesus says "I am God", our God saying "I am God and there is no other" isn't necessarily indicative of that, but you would expect if there is a true God and He has represented Himself in the flesh, in his Son, that you would get these kinds of statements. And so then you have to look at the statements and say, are they verifiable?

I think CS Lewis put it really well when he said, "You can't just accept Jesus as a good moral teacher," like you can with some of these other guys. He made some claims that either he is who he claims to be, and if so we'd better put our trust in him, or he's an incredible liar. And those who knew him said, "No, this guy is genuine," or "He's sincere, (which he clearly was) but he's insane." Jesus doesn't fit that, he is as rational and as coherent as the sun is bright in the morning, you know?So Christianity claims to be the only way, and then you have the verifiability question. We talked last week about the Greek myths, for example. And they are some fabulous stories, but they're not things you see happening in the real world. It's kind of like reading Harry Potter - it all makes sense within the fiction, but it doesn't translate into our life. We don't see these things happening in our world. Whereas the Christian faith, the faith of the Old and New Testament, it happened in our world. And so where history examines it, we find people outside of Christianity saying Jesus lived and he was crucified. His followers say he rose - of course the non-Christian writer isn't going to say for sure that he rose, but they're going to identify that, yes, those who follow him say that this happened.

You also have the archeological evidence. I mean, for a long time people would say this didn't happen. And then somebody started digging and guess what? There it was. And over and over again, archeology has verified the times and the places, and you even have cultural things. There's things that go on in Genesis that people ask "Well, why did they do that?" And then you find out that culturally that was going on in the world around them in that time period. So we can not only know that Abraham lived, but we can see that he was definitely a man of faith who believed in the One True God in his time with everything else that was going on. So you have archeology, you have anthropology, you have history, sociology, all these sciences can look at it. Some may say, "Well, what about the miracles? We don't see that in our everyday world." And that also is proof of Christianity, because when a miracle happens in the Bible people see it as a miracle. They don't say, "Oh, you know, there's a half man half horse wandering across the field. That's normal." They don't say, "Oh, Jesus touched him and his eyes are well, that's normal." That's what happens in fiction in fiction - the person with the magical powers does what they do, and nobody bats an eye because everybody with magical power does that. In Scripture, they respond the way you and I would. If somebody was healed, we'd say "Whoa, what is this? Has God just stepped in and done what only God can do in God's universe?"

We also have within the Scripture verifiability - the Scripture claims to be the Word of God, and it's such a unique book. You have these other books that are written by single authors. I mean, the claims aside of maybe where they were getting their inspiration from, Muhammad writes the Quran from start to finish. Joseph Smith writes the Book of Mormon from start to finish. With the Bible, you have a book that is written over a period of 1,600 years, 40 different writers, speaking three different languages, living on three different continents, over a period of one and a half millennia. And from start to finish, they tell a single cohesive story with a single viewpoint about God. And by the way, it is contrary to every other story out there. Because as we mentioned last week, if you read the Greek narratives where they're dealing with their gods, the Greeks themselves are the heroes and the gods are kind of the bad guys, we tricked them out of fire this time, and we got out of this that time - we win, because man is at the center of it. In the Bible, you've got to ask yourself what was wrong with the Jews that they wrote what they wrote, because they are not the heroes. Only God is the hero from start to finish. He is the hero - you can take the very best they had to offer, King David, and everybody knows about his blunders. Take strong Sampson, everybody knows about his blunders. Only God from page one to the end of revelation is the hero. Then you have something else that I don't think any other scripture has because it was written over such a long time.

You have prophecies in the Old Testament that are fulfilled. Some of them in the Old Testament, others in the New, a whole lot of them about Jesus. And so it's not just that some prophet, you know, vaguely prophesied what might be and something like that sort of happened. They said the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. And when King Herod said, "Where's he supposed to be born? There's these guys looking for him." Well Scripture says Bethlehem. So pinpoint that on the scripture itself verifies. And then one last proof, I'm going to speak for my own life. Jesus has changed my life and He's still in the process of changing it. So I know through experience that He answers prayer, that He's with me because we've both had many moments that have verified the Jesus who said, "I am the way the truth and the life, I will never leave you. I'll send my spirits to dwell in you." I've still got a long way to go. Don't look at me and say, "Is that what Jesus is like?" Cause you won't be disappointed, but I can tell you he has been there over and over and over again and proved himself in beautiful ways.

Ben Poole

This is so good, and there's so much information we could dive into. It's hard to narrow it down really. One of the things that I thought of was all the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, and the chances that these would be fulfilled in the way they perfectly were. I mean, it's so worldly impossible. It could not have happened outside of God orchestrating it to happen. There are books written on this, there's information you can read. And a lot of times people say, "Well, how do we know the Bible's true? How do we know that Christianity is the only way?" And sometimes the uneducated answer is "Well, I believe it. I've put my faith in it." And there's absolutely something true about that. I've put my faith in Christ. Hopefully you have as well, but you can take these things that Gary has shared here and you can look this up. This is verifiable information that is not hidden to the world. I mean, the archeology especially has made huge waves in secular belief. And every single time they find something, they're trying to prove the Bible wrong on this. They're like, "Oh man, I guess the Bible was true about that. And that may not change lives because they can say, "Well, it's just a historical book." But again, going back to the fact of this one story, telling God's story, 3000 plus years, different languages, different people, different family lines, all telling the same story. I know people have argued that they don't believe all these people really wrote it. But again, these are verifiable facts.

When you look back and go back to the earliest documentation of how things were written and where it was written, there's so much information. And if you also look back at all of these other faiths, it's not there. It is not there. And I think that goes back to the power of the Word of God. It's not so much the physical Bible you hold in your hand, but it's the message that never changes. It was written in Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic and it's changed so we can have it in English, and it's still being translated into other languages today - praise the Lord for that, by the way - but the message has never changed. It was always pointing to Jesus. It has always pointed to God, His work in the world. That is the message. You could read the Bible and you could find Jesus. That's something so powerful that I don't think any other faith has. And also, I appreciate what you said that you never read the Bible and look at these people thinking they are heroes. They're often writing the story of themselves sharing some of their deepest faults, even in the gospels and what took place, and their shame, and their ignorance, and letting women have a higher role in some places than culture would appreciate or approve of. And they were writing about their fear and running away and leaving Jesus behind. They wrote that about themselves, right? It just points to Jesus all the more. Again, thank you so much for this question. We pray that this conversation has been a blessing and I know we would love to talk more about this.

Gary Schick

And just one other thing - dig deeper. Read CS Lewis' Mere Christianity, read Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands A Verdict that zeroes in on Jesus' death and resurrection, read Josh McDowell's More Evidence That Demands A Verdict that talks about the reliability of Scripture and how we can depend on it. There is not a book in the world that has been examined and scrutinized like the Bible. People say, "Well, how do you know that it hasn't changed?" We have more manuscripts of Scripture than any other book in ancient literature. We only have a handful of copies of Homer, his Iliad and Odyssey, we only have a handful of copies of Plato's writings, of Socrates. And nobody questions that this is what these guys said, and who knows how well those copies match, but you can take those thousands of New and Old Testament copies of Scripture and compare them, and over and over again it is saying the same thing. It hasn't changed, whether we're looking at something that's a couple hundred years before Christ like the Dead Sea Scrolls, or a copy of it from a thousand years after Christ, like the Leningrad, a copy of the Old Testament, Even in proximity to how close we are to the original manuscripts, we're very close. There is a consistency in God's Word, and a ring of truth that you'll find nowhere else.

Examining "Truth Be Told" by Matthew West - Ask The Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Andy Griess and Bruce Peterson.

Andy Griess

We had another question come in and I think it's one that'll be interesting to you. You guys listen to KCMI on the regular, and while you're listening you may run across this Matthew West song called Truth Be Told. And a listener sent us a question about some of the things they were wrestling with that were brought up in this song. And so we're just going to read through some of the thoughts here in this song and interact with them as pastors, and just give you our perspective. So the song begins with line number one: "You're supposed to have it all together. And when they ask how you're doing just smile and tell him never better." And so this song is dealing with some of the things you sometimes see in the church that might be off putting to somebody who has some hurts, has some needs, has some baggage, and they're coming into the church expecting something from God that can bring peace, joy and love into their life. But when they come through the door, they see this vision of something that they're not sure if this is the place for them.

Bruce Peterson

Or they don't even come in the door because it's what they expect.

Andy Griess

Yeah. Our culture definitely gives us the conception that this is what you're going to find. If you come to a church, you're going to find people like this, who they act like they've got it all together, they smile, and you ask them how they're doing and they just say "Oh, never better. Life is good."

Bruce Peterson

And in my experience, I think part of that's true. So let's just deal with this, right? A lot of churches are judgmental. Certainly today, a lot of churches that get quoted or are in the news are there because the news loves to paint us as a group of judgmental people. Right? So they find the bad case scenarios and make us seem more judgmental. But to be fair, I grew up in judgmental churches. I certainly know judgmental people that go to church. I would also like to say a lot of people who don't go to church are judgmental as well.

Andy Griess

Yeah. (chuckles)

Bruce Peterson

Humans are judgmental. So the question is, is it okay if we take that judgement and put it on God and say that God therefore is judgmental because people are? So lie number one: Are you supposed to have it all together? Do you have it all together?

Andy Griess

No. No, but I look nice on Sunday morning. And that's what we do - we put on what we call our Sunday best. And if it's not dressing up, on the way to church you might have fights going on in the car, you might have arguments. Everything might be falling apart, but you step out of that car and you walk into church, you're gonna have it together.

Bruce Peterson

If your kids act out, it's like "You're gonna get it." (laughs)

Andy Griess

Of course we're going to do that. But the problem is, if you carry that over and act like spiritually and relationally I've got to be that way too. I think one of the things that the church doesn't do a good job of, because we put on those airs, is we don't open up to one another and we don't share our hurts and our struggles and our failures, and the efforts that we're making to overcome those failures. Those are things we don't talk about until we're on the other end of them and we got it all figured out.

Bruce Peterson

That's right. And I think this is a real shame. I think it's true that this is the expectation, we act like we have it all together. I think it is terribly detrimental. The message we should be talking about with every fiber of our being is that we are a group of people sojourning together on our way to heaven. We are learning from each other, we're mentoring each other, we are growing... which implies that we have growth to do. I don't have it all together, but I have it way more together than I did 30 years ago, right? I mean, there's progress. And yet I can say without any hesitation that I have farther to go. If this is a marathon, I'm about two miles in.

Andy Griess

And I think part of the struggle for a pastor and for a church member is remembering if you're 30 years into this journey, you didn't learn all those lessons and make that growth overnight - it's been 30 years of that. And more importantly, remembering that the starting point of that was God calling to you in your sin and saying "You are broken. You are my enemy because of your resistance and your rebellion. Are you ready to leave all of that behind and accept the forgiveness that I have for you? Let's start here with faith in Jesus." And if, 30 years out, you look at where you are today and you're only concerned about your own progress, then you're not part of a church because there's people coming in that are brand new every time, and they need that very first lesson.

Bruce Peterson

And I think when we have that attitude, we look at the church and we don't see how we fit in when the fact is, if you have 15 years in you have advice you can give. You have support you can give. You've made progress. How did you make it? Sit next to someone who's clearly entering the church and say, "Listen, I'm not here to judge you. I'm here to tell you if you hang in there for 15 years, here's what it took me. You can do this!" We can all be encouragers instead of judgers. We can all own our sojourning progress and really contribute significantly to other people's lives.

Andy Griess

Yeah, and I think we should have the attitude that "If it took me 15 years to learn this, I want to make sure it doesn't take that guy 15 years because I'm going to take those things that I learned the hard way and give him a hand up."

Bruce Peterson

Yeah. And the other side of that coin is, I'm not going to expect him to make in four months the progress that took me 15 years. Or, I'm not there yet, I'm faking, and he better really turned around and yet I have all this secret stuff going on. So we agree that's a lie - you shouldn't have it all together, but we do also agree that the church is a place where you can make progress.

Andy Griess

Yeah, absolutely. Line number two says that "everybody's life is perfect except for yours". I think that's what comes out of church, people pretending they got it all together. It leaves people coming in with this idea that everybody's got it figured out. And so it says, "You keep your messes and your wounds and your secrets safe behind closed doors."

Bruce Peterson

That's right. So the idea is if I come to church believing that everyone's telling me the truth and I'm going to church to find help because I have problems, but I get there and they're all saying they're fine, then somehow God has forgotten about me. They have power I don't have, they have blessings I don't have, somehow there's a gap between me and God because clearly if you're doing fine, you're healthy, you're wealthy, you are blessed, your children obey you every time, you have perfect self discipline...

Andy Griess

This must be a place for people who have it all together.

Bruce Peterson

...or God has lost me somehow. So that's terribly detrimental. Again, James says to confess your sin to one another because love covers a multitude of sins. Love like church should be a place where we acknowledge that we're sojourners. Paul says, "Listen, I know you want to give up. I know your tears. And I'm telling you, hang in there, suffer with me. Do the long haul." Paul himself says "I haven't arrived yet, but I have to get up every day and forget yesterday and press on to what God has called me for." Like, this is hard. Living by faith is hard. The world does a great job trying to suck us in. And if it's a war, there must be a battle. Like God describes it, our battle is not against flesh and blood. But again, if there's a real battle and none of us are struggling, then it's not even a battle.

Andy Griess

And this is one of the key reasons why the church is so important - because if every one of us has to start off that huge battle with just whatever we've got, it's overwhelming.

Bruce Peterson

It's overwhelming.

Andy Griess

When I do pre-marriage counseling, when I'm getting a couple ready for marriage, I'm gonna tell them marriage is the hardest thing that you've ever done, but you're not the first person that's had to go through all of that. This church is filled with people who've been married 20 years, 35 years, 60 years. And if you're a part of this body and you're getting to know these people and your lives are connected and you're raising kids together, somebody here has gone through that and failed, and they can tell you why they failed or did it successfully. And they can tell you what the keys to success were. But being connected to a group that isn't just pretending, we've got it all together, that's open and sharing, that's the thing.

Bruce Peterson

Honest, open and growing, that's our theme, right? But getting people to actually do it is much trickier than putting it on the wall.

Andy Griess

In the question that was sent to us, they keyed in on the second verse which says "There's a sign on the door that says come as you are, but I doubt it. Because if we live like that was true, every Sunday morning pew would be crowded. But didn't you say the church should look more like a hospital, a safe place for the sick, the center and the scared and the prodigals like me."

Bruce Peterson

And that's going to come out of passages like this. Jesus in Matthew 9:10-12 says this: "While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with Him and His disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, 'Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?' On hearing this, Jesus said 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick. But go and learn what this means - I desire mercy and not sacrifice. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners'." So out of that idea comes this idea that churches should be hospitals. How do you react to that?

Andy Griess

It comes from this idea that Jesus said, "I came for those who are sick." And I take that to mean - we're all sick.

Bruce Peterson

Yeah, that's right.

Andy Griess

He came for those who are willing to recognize that they are sick.

Bruce Peterson

When he says "I'm not here for the righteous". He means the self-righteous.

Andy Griess

If you consider yourself to be righteous, you don't need any help, you're going to stay where you are for the rest of your life - Jesus has no help for them. His help is for those who recognize that they're sick, that's why you go to a hospital. And the church was founded with people who recognize that they're sick. They found that Jesus had the answer. He's forgiven their sins, His spirit now lives in them, they've been given new life. They have now a mission to be the light of the world to take the message of Jesus to the world. They're to go to the rest of the sick and say, listen, if you recognize you have needs Jesus is the answer. We found him. We're learning to be what he called us to be. And we want you to join us wherever you're at. Jump right in and let's go. So it should be in some sense, a functional hospital.

Bruce Peterson

A functional hospital, that's the key. So the full range of a hospital is not just an emergency room, right? Our message isn't just, "Hey, Jesus forgives sin, so just sit in the pews, be as sinful as you want with no expectation of health, you're here simply for forgiveness." I think that's wrong, the church isn't just an emergency room. A hospital's not just an emergency room. You have the emergency room, and people who need real help should feel totally welcome, that's where they can go for help. Then you go from the emergency room to a care room, you get your own room maybe on floor two and three. And then four, you go to rehab. The goal is to leave the hospital healthy or at least relatively healthy, right? It's the whole gamut. So yeah, you should have people who aren't judged. You should be able to come in because you don't know the message of grace and what God's love can do for a person. At the same time we're all patients, but we're all also doctors, we need to help and we should have an expectation of growth, and we are the light of the world. So we can't stay people who need an emergency room. We have to move all the way to people who are just coming for a little rehab and we're leaving healthier to go reach our world.

Andy Griess

And just to kind of wrap things up: if the church is going to be that kind of a hospital, the goal of everybody should be, "I'm gonna take what Jesus has done for me, and I need people in this town to know that if they're broken and sick they don't have to stay there. There's a place where they can come." And so the people that have been healed are the ones who reach the rest.

Bruce Peterson

That's right. In this whole song. I think Matthew West is pushing the church to be real. Be sojourners, don't be fake. If we all own our issues, then we can demonstrate a real process and real progress, and then we can actually be real help to those who need it. So people who need help - all of us, but some desperately - should be able to come sit in our pews, get our healing, get our help, because we have all gotten help. We should offer help instead of judgment, and we should have a "in" door and "out" door. You come in sick and you leave a little healthier. And if we do that for the course of our life, we'll make a huge difference.

Andy Griess

And I think the reason this song kind of conveys a sense of sadness is because the world knows this is what the church should be. It should be our vision as the church that we want to be the light that Jesus intends us to be.

How Should Christians Respond to Government Involvement In Our Faith? - Ask The Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Jeff Banks, Andy Griess and Bruce Peterson.

Bruce Peterson

So this week we have an absolutely tough, tough question. It reads easy enough, but the answer is tough. The basic question is: In the political environment that we are in as Americans, how many liberties should we as Christians be willing to give up? The question went on to talk about the vaccines are coming around, and as this person wrestled with the Bible they went to the character of Daniel. And in their estimation, they said, "Do I think that Daniel would get the vaccine? I think Daniel would get the vaccine, but then Daniel wasn't American." So as we live in our unique political environment, with our absolute unique word of God, how should we think through all of the liberty issues in our culture today? How do we respond to them as Christians?

Andy Griess

And I would add specifically that this question was in this context: What if the government doesn't give you the option of taking the vaccine, or what if they were trying to take away the freedom to make that choice?

Jeff Banks

So mandating the vaccine. And maybe we could preface it with - this isn't new, right? I think American Christians have been grappling with constitutional freedom, religious freedom through history, but certainly we can all agree over the last year that this has just come to the surface.

Andy Griess

It is a hot topic.

Jeff Banks

It's hot, and we know it's polarizing, and I don't think we want to add to that. Like, I think we've had enough - I've had enough - of some of that happening. And so we want to try to bring some pastoral care and yet - I'll be honest - I think we're all wrestling through it ourselves personally.

Bruce Peterson

Right now it is 4:36. The three of us started this at 3:00 and we've been talking for over an hour and a half on this subject just between the three of us, trying to really wrestle through what our perspective is. So we don't in any way want to suggest this is simple, or suggest that we have a definitive answer that you can take and never think about it again yourself.

Jeff Banks

And I guess even as we say that, I appreciate that we can do that. And maybe that's a good starting point - hopefully we can model that, even with different perspectives, we're sitting at the table and having a discussion and it's good. I think that's good.

Andy Griess

Yeah. And one of the things that I was just thinking about is as we've thrown out all of our different viewpoints and how we handle this, we kind of have different ways of coming at this. And that would come out if somebody came into my office as a pastor and asked this question, I'm wrestling right now with the idea that I think I know how I would handle this specific question, but I'm not certain that's the advice I would give for the person sitting across the desk from me, because their situation and their way of thinking might be different than mine. So I think there should be a lot of freedom for Christians to have different ways of coming at this and that's one of the trickier things - in the Western world and in the United States, as we seem to be having less and less and less freedom, there might be points where you got to make some hard decisions. And if I would be willing to stand up and make a hard decision that might put me in a situation where I would have to defend myself, or be arrested, or whatever - if I would be willing to make that choice, I don't know that I would look at the person across the table and say they should have to make the same choice.

Bruce Peterson

As pastors, we bear a unique responsibility and serve in a special role, so we might lay our lives down in a different way than congregants necessarily would. Here's something I think we all three do agree on, let's start with this. There is a major, major distinction between being an American and being a Christian.

Andy Griess

For certain.

Jeff Banks

Absolutely.

Bruce Peterson

Different kingdoms, different agendas, different morals, different responsibilities, different goals.

Jeff Banks

Absolutely. And I think it's difficult because there can be a climate where we're trying to merge some of those too closely.

Bruce Peterson

And we live in both worlds.

Jeff Banks

And sometimes they're opposed, right? So I think we have to acknowledge that.

Bruce Peterson

So I think we'd all agree that our, our primary fight - maybe that's just that they're separate ideas. And we aren't called in the Bible to be good citizens of whatever country you live in, right? America wasn't around when the Bible was written. We're called to be good citizens everywhere. But literally of everywhere. Wherever you live, you should be a good citizen there.

Jeff Banks

Yeah. That's not distinctively American, right? Christians and other countries, be a good citizen in the country you live.

Andy Griess

And that's where I would say my goal personally has to start individually. I want to live as a resident of the kingdom of God. Jesus is my king. I want to live in service to him. And then I want to take that to my family. I would love for him to be the King of everybody living in my household.

Bruce Peterson

Especially my twins, yeah.

Andy Griess

And then beyond that as a pastor, I'm going to go to my church family. I think all of these run together between my family and my church. I want everybody there to know that Jesus is King and want to live with Him as their king. I would love for that to spill over into a nation who wanted to live with Jesus as their king. That's not the nation that we live in. So how do we work towards seeing more and more of our nation wanting that? If we have a nation that's going to try to limit our freedoms, how do we handle all that? I'm starting back with myself, my family, and my church family. That's the area where I have influence. And that's honestly the only area where I want to put all of my focus, teaching the gospel in such a way that I'm hopefully inspiring other people to see that they want to live with Jesus as King. I think the only freedoms that I'm really worried about, is the freedom to not be able to do that, as long as I have the freedom to do that I can operate in any other kind of system.

Jeff Banks

I think if someone's coming into my office and asking this question, the two-minute version is to address these two distinct places or tensions that we live in as American citizens, and to be thankful - grateful - for the freedom that we have, grateful for those who have fought and died for freedom, to exercise the freedom you have as a citizen, to use the avenues that you have available to you - which includes voting - and whatever the blessing of living in this free country may be, to embrace that. And then I would transition to, you know, we are also citizens of this kingdom, right? And so I would just invite them to prayerfully discern with Jesus as your King, and not allow your American citizen freedom and the loss of that to trump that aspect of it. Jesus is King. If you lose your freedom, if America derails, Jesus is still King and Jesus is still building his church, and the church can flourish regardless of that. So that's my initial approach right there.

Bruce Peterson

I would say this: I think it's a wonder to live in America. Our constitution is very liberating and has caused wonderful things on this planet and in our personal lives. I can't imagine being in a dictatorship that's going south or something like living in Cuba 30 years ago. So I'm super thankful. But with that comes responsibility, right? I mean, it's been handed to us and we should try to the best of our ability to hand it down. I appreciate our government, but I think that can get in the way of our gospel presentation because politics divides. So here's what I would say: I believe that God will lay it on the hearts of certain Christians to rise up and to be politicians. They should follow that lead. They should go, they should stand, they should fight, they should argue, they should try to pass laws that keep our freedoms and keep it possible to spread the gospel. But we're not all called to politics. If we were all called to politics, we would be a political party. We're not, we're the church of God. In Daniel's prophecy, the church of the kingdom of God is going to wipe out other governments, including ours. But this government should last as long as it can.

I think we should vote for those people - we should know them, we should know the issues, we should vote - but the freedoms that they're fighting for, we should use. We fight over the freedom itself, but we don't use the freedom. The vast majority of Christians should be in the business of trusting God with our politics, voting, and then using our freedom to spread the Gospel without a false hurdle. If you first have to agree with me politically before I think you're a Christian, or if I'm so loud politically that you won't hear the Gospel from me because I've alienated you, I think I've done a disservice to the kingdom of God. Maybe I have served the United States but I won't hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You really defended America." I am called to spread the kingdom of God, and I'm with Paul - I don't put any hurdles in the way of that.

Andy Griess

As I imagine somebody coming into my office to ask me this question, "What do we do with this issue that I think is limiting my freedom? I think the government has overreached and is trying to make me do something that they don't have the authority to do." I think I would sympathize with them to a certain extent and say they're in a tough spot and they've got to think through a lot of things. And I think part of me would share with them how I think about the subject, but I don't know how specific I would get regarding what I would do. I would point them to the fact that within the systems we have now in America, there is a legal, civil way of making your protests heard. If you feel like this is overreach, then there is an outlet for you to do that. But the truth is, you would probably have to put yourself in a position where you are going to defy a mandate, which means that you may be charged with something, you may be fined, you may have to go through some kind of a civil trial ordeal, where that begins the process where you can challenge it.

So you've got to count the cost. Is it worth me trying to go through the legal mechanisms to do this? And that's where I would say, "I could tell you what I might be willing to do, but I would not want to tell you what to do." I try to make them aware of what they would have to go through to take it through all those legal channels, and then I would not center on that. I would say the worry you have that freedoms are eroding, there's things that Christians haven't liked for generations about the direction our nation is headed. But at every step of the way it's the gospel of Jesus Christ that we have to focus on, it has to be central to everything that we're doing. And fighting every one of these political battles, politically I don't think that has served us well. I think it's taken our attention away from is Jesus, our King first and foremost. And are we conveying to the people around us that he should be their king too? Here's why, here's how awesome He is. Here's what he can do for you. Here's what he wants to do for the world. That's the message that I want to make sure people have at the forefront of what they're trying to accomplish.

Bruce Peterson

I think the gospel can thrive in any political government, and has for 2000 years. It is the one kingdom that has the promise of God that it will conquer all other kingdoms, including democracy.

Andy Griess

And I think if that would have been our focus as the church all the way through, to focus on the Gospel rather than trying to fight these fights politically, maybe there would have been a slide in a different direction, where things could be a lot different. So if we're going to make the changes we want to make, it starts with being serious about that. That's what I would say.

Bruce Peterson

I think you're right. If you're afraid of anything, be afraid of not being serious about the Gospel.

How Do We Reach Our Communities For Christ? - Ask The Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Poole and Gary Schick.

Ben Poole

So this morning, our question is a little bit different, but it's one that I know I have a passion for and I think you do too. And so we'll just get into it. This question is from a young man who recently shared with me his burden to reach our community for Christ, but he struggled with how best to go about doing it. If you were to advise him on how to proceed, what would you tell him? So Gary, let's think about that. What kind of advice can we give this person?

Gary Schick

And this one comes with a little conviction because you know, whatever we say, well, are you doing it? And if not, why not? Evangelism is kind of an interesting thing, because as evangelicals that is our business. That's what we're about is sharing the good news. And yet statistically, it's amazing how many "evangelical Christians" have never shared the gospel. Is it because we don't know what to say? Is it because we're afraid? What is it that holds us back? Is it maybe that we actually put too much on ourselves and not enough on what the Lord can do, or are we just waiting for the Lord to do it for us?

I guess I could say this: I'm really happy that in the last 15 years that I've been a part of this community, the one thing the pastors and churches have really come together on over and over again is a passion to do this - to do it individually, to do it together. Way, way, way back at the beginning of our time here, it was a really cool thing. Evangelists Bill Fay came into the Cougar Palace up at the college. Many churches in the community actually gave up Sunday morning service for this Sunday to come together for joint worship, where he trained us in a method of personal evangelism. I think he was quoting DL Moody when he once said, "If you don't like my method of evangelism, that's fine. What's yours?" You know, just go out and do it. That was great, and through the years whatever we've come together for, like Love In Action and most recently just bringing food to the Albertson's parking lot. The underlying component there is - in some practical, felt way - to let the love of God be known and hopefully open up a door to share the gospel. Now have all those occasions bore fruit? God only knows, but there is a passion in this community for that. Like all the other questions, this one's huge.

Ben Poole

Yeah.

Gary Schick

We could spend a week on this one, on different approaches, different methods. But if we were to boil the topic down, for myself, I would just share three things to our listeners today in terms of sharing the hope that is within us, salvation through faith in Christ. Number one: Pray. Yes, we are messengers of God's good news. We are sent out into the world just as the early apostles were. "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" - that includes us. But Jesus first says, "Ask the Lord of the harvest to send and to equip and to prepare hearts." Ultimately it's not you or I, or anything we say that changes a life or saves a heart, it's the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

I had the coolest experience many years ago when I was a seminary student. A small group of us went over to Kenya in East Africa for eight weeks. And through translators we were sort of stumbling through the gospel. And did we see people come to Christ? Yes. But one of the coolest things was when somebody showed up and said, "You never spoke to me, but I saw you sharing the gospel. And I felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and I accepted Christ." We had never spoken to him, but others had planted the seed and we were reaping the harvest of what others had planted. And there was a great harvest that summer. That was messaged to us - yes, you are here being faithful, God's blessing it, but there is a very real sense that you've got nothing to do with it. This is all about God's work in the human heart.

Then number two: Make it felt. Love, develop, not just to get you saved, but develop sincere relationships with your neighbors and coworkers, and just love people where they are and be the fragrance of the gospel. And as Paul said, "To some we are the fragrance of life, to others who are rejecting it we are the fragrance of death. But whatever it is, be the fragrance of the gospel in people's lives." So are we producing those fruits of the Holy Spirit? Are we being Christ-like to our neighbors and to our community? And are we salt and light?

And then third: When the opportunity comes, speak up. And I think this is where a lot of people kind of check it off. "Yep. I can pray. I can do that. Yep, I can be kind and loving, so I'm going to do that." But boy, I don't know what to say. Well, and it's okay. Drag them to church, let them hear an evangelist. But you know, there are people that you may reach that I will never meet, or that you will have an inroad with because of a relationship that I will never have. So I'm kind of limiting things to three, but there's three things to note. Number one, know our need. We are all sinners. We have all fallen short of the glory of God. We all are separated from God by sin and we need a savior. Number two, know the gospel. Jesus is that savior, He is the sinless son of God. He died for our sins and He rose again. And number three, know how to respond. Receive Christ. Put your trust in Him. There's nothing magic about words in a prayer, but prayer is the way we talk to God and just acknowledge it. "Jesus. I need you to forgive my sin. I believe in you. I accept you as my Savior. My Lord, come into my heart and my life." It's not a specific set of words like God to say this it's a response. And then right back to number one - pray, pray, pray.

You know, statistically most people need to hear the gospel about seven times before they respond. So we shouldn't be discouraged. I know naturally we are, if we go out and share our faith, and we just kind of get a blank stare. Well, you might just be the first one along the way. Some people only need to hear it once, but there are some who aren't going to need to hear it seven times, they're going to need to hear it 70. At least be one of those times, Pray for God to be moving in hearts, and pray for God to be preparing your heart, pray that You will be salt and light and pray for opportunities.

Ben Poole

Yeah, that's good. And I definitely echo everything you just said as key things to consider, and I want to pivot to some practical things that we can do. There's churches coming together, handing out food. What I would say is don't feel like you have to reinvent the wheel, because our community and our churches are filled with ministries that are outreaching to the community for the gospel. If you're the one that asked us this question and you're going to a church regularly, go talk to your pastor or ministry leaders and ask, "Where can I use these gifts that I have with our body?. And if you're not part of a church, get in one and come visit. You can come to either of ours or any of the preachers that are on Ask The Pastor. Just pick a church that's a gospel preaching church, and get involved and see what you can do.

There's a point where we think these are large scale things - the food ministries, the food pantries, they're reaching large groups of people. But like you were alluding to, don't forget your neighbor, don't forget your coworker that you're with all day long, and the people you're around. Sometimes it's easy to think of reaching people on a bigger scale, maybe like in a church service setting, but there are people who don't necessarily come to church but would love to have a conversation. Most people that I talk to and have talked to who aren't Christian love to talk about what they believe in. And one thing I've struggled with - and probably still do - is that I want to spend more time trying to convince someone to come to Christ, and I struggle a lot with listening. And I think what people really need is for someone to listen to them. That is something that's hard because in your head you're thinking of arguments against everything they're saying, but we have to be careful when we're telling people about Jesus. What we're really doing is we're essentially dismantling their whole belief system, and that affects people emotionally and physically. And it's hard for people to learn what they believed isn't true. And so that goes back to when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment is, "To love the Lord your God, with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself." And I think we need to reach people for Christ, whether it's in large settings or in an individual setting where, if this was me that was being talked to, how would I want someone to share that gospel with me? In my struggles, in my unbelief, in my belief of something else, how would I want someone to talk to me about that?

Our church motto or mission statement is very simple: Love God, Love People, Repeat. We've got to invest into our relationship with God. Like you were saying, pray, stay in the Word and then go love people, just like Jesus did. He didn't say, "I'm going to go love those people, but not these people." We've got to get away from that nonsense teaching. He got a lot of grief for the people He spent time with. And He said, "I came for the lost, I came for the sick" - they're the ones that need to be healed. And I think we as Christians need to have that same mindset.

Gary Schick

Yeah. And you brought out two things: one, the need of believers for a church body to be a part of. We'll have individual witness opportunities, but it is as the church that we do this. On the other hand, the longer we're in Christ the farther away from the non-Christian world we become. So while it's important to be a part of the church, it's also important to be in the world, but as the Scripture says not of the world. So there are evangelical Christians who are saying, "Well, I'd be willing to share but I don't know anybody who doesn't know Jesus." Well, maybe you need to go make some new friends. I mean, I'm not saying to go and start doing a bunch of sinful things to be like that. But hey, there's people who don't know Jesus everywhere we go. Just get to know people and accept them where they are. That's the other stereotype Christians have, that we're very judgmental. And we're going to come off that way because, you know, we have turned from a lot of that, but we also have to meet people where they are and say, "You know, I'm not there. I'm not telling you not to be there, but I'm inviting you to know someone who makes all the difference and will turn your life inside out, upside down in ways you never imagined." And those surface things that set us apart from the world - they're there, but they're not even the beginning of the real change that Jesus wants to make inside us.

Ben Poole

Well if you're listening and you are looking for ways to serve, I can openly invite you to pretty much any church in our community. The churches in our community really are making some moves for the kingdom of God here. So we would love to have you join up and get involved in different ministries around the community, see where your gifting is and come talk to us and we can get you plugged in somewhere for sure, because the church really needs people that are going to get out there and get to work for the kingdom of God. And it is not God's desire that any should perish, but all should come to repentance. So the way that's going to happen is through His church that He established.