An Explanation of Slavery in the Old Testament - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Johnathan Hernandez, and Gary Schick.

Gary Schick
Hey guys, it's great to be together. We've got another interesting question that was passed along to me. Exodus 21:1-6 is the passage that's being asked about, and Jonathan's gonna read it to us. But the question is, "can you talk about slavery and the Bible's seeming endorsement of it? Also, it seems strange that a man would have to choose between his freedom from slavery and keeping his wife and kids. What does it mean that the slave's wife and children belong to the slave's master? Is there a spiritual truth that God is trying to show us here? I'm confused."

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah. So Exodus 21:1 starts out, "now these are the judgements which you shall set before them. If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh, he shall go free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself. If he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife and she has bore him sons or daughters, the wife and the children shall be her masters, and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, my children, I will not go out free.' Then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl and he shall serve him forever." So that's the scripture that they gave us for today. And I think for me, a lot of times when we look at the scriptures, we look at them through our current circumstances, or the eyes that we've seen here with slavery. When we hear "slavery," we think of it as how we've grown up learning about it, I guess, through school. And, you know, how slavery was in the early times of the United States history and stuff kind of like that. And so we think of it, now slavery is evil like, I hope people don't think, as we talk through this, that we're trying to justify something or anything. But, you know, slavery in itself is evil. And it's not something that should be happening. And hopefully it's not happening currently, but we know that it is happening all across the world right now. So we look at this and we see that slavery, I guess, in the Bible we see it throughout the Bible, happening. And slavery was, I guess, permissible in certain situations as long as slaves were regarded as a full member of the community. And we kind of see this in Genesis 17:12, it says, "throughout your generation, every male amongst you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner. And so you see that even slaves were having to walk through the same things that the Hebrews were having to walk through. The slaves would also get the opportunity to have the same amount of rest. It says, "work six days and on the seventh day, rest." And so even the slaves were held to that standard. Like, "you're gonna work six days for me as a slave owner, right? But on that seventh day, we're gonna give you rest and you're gonna be able to recuperate, hopefully and be able to go on." They were to be treated like humans, cause that's, you know, even though they're slaves, they're still humans. And I think that's some of the difference that maybe we're seeing in the slavery that we've seen happen in the early US history; is a lot of the slaves weren't seen as human. You know, so we dehumanize things so that way it's easier to do things that maybe we shouldn't be doing to other humans. Not saying that back then in the new or in the Old Testament, that people weren't dehumanized. I think you were still seeing some of these things happening. And so I think you see, like, even here, like it talks about the Hebrew slave. They're gonna work six years for that person, and then in the seventh year they're gonna be free. And within our question it talks about, "what about the women and the children?" And I was reading through a bunch of different forums, I guess, on this yet last night and trying to, "okay, where are we seeing this." I've seen some people talk about, "okay, in this passage it doesn't say forever. And so maybe they're serving their six years, and then they'll be free on their seventh. But it doesn't really support that either." And so you kind of have this back and forth on that. What does that mean? And I guess for the way I read that, if the husband was willing to stay and become a slave forever, more than likely his wife and his children were the master's forever. Cause otherwise, why would you, you know, stay knowing that, "hey, your wife's gonna be out in two years," you know? Like maybe you'd, you know, work close to that, to where your family's a slave at, so that way you could be with them. But I guess I'm not really sure on that. So yeah.

Ben Cline
Yeah, these are, you know, difficult questions to deal with and sometimes to understand even from studying through what scripture has to say. But again, it goes a lot to the historical context of what's going on here. And again, like you said Jonathan, we have, you know, such a tendency to look at things through the context of how we understand things in our modern times. And, you know, in our modern times we understand slavery to be, basically, kidnapping somebody and owning them, which again, is evil. It's not okay. But a lot of times, the slavery or the servanthood that is being talked about in the Old Testament, and especially here in this passage in Exodus 21 this is talking about, you know, slavery within the Hebrew culture. And so this is, you know, somebody who owes somebody else a debt, and basically sells themself into servanthood to a person that's called their master now. And so this is something that we could compare to, you know, like indentured servitude. So they're basically there to pay off a debt. And the thing that I love about this passage of scripture, where God is establishing the law, is that he's taking something that the world has been doing for, you know, so long. You see a lot of examples of slavery in scripture of things that were happening in the world, where slavery was taking place. But what God is doing here is, He's regulating it and He's helping people to see that they can't just, you know, do whatever they want and take advantage of other people. And so He's really taking some time to establish some rules here and actually establish some rights, or some basic rights for the slaves, or the servants. And so, you know, slavery is fundamentally different in some instances, you know, from our modern slavery versus what was happening back in the time when this was written. And the thing that was happening that's so interesting, as you read through this passage a little bit further in Exodus 21, the modern slavery that we understand today is expressively forbidden. It's in verse 16 of Exodus 21 that the kidnapping and selling of people is expressively forbidden. And so modern slavery was expressly breaking that law that was established by God. But the interesting thing as you're looking, you know, at slavery in the Bible, is that oftentimes it was like this economic arrangement. And one big difference is that it was never one race feeling a superiority over another race. And that being the determining factor as to whether or not somebody could be a slave. And so that was, you know, a huge difference between what was happening back then and what's happening, not what's currently happening, but I guess there's probably still a lot of slavery that's taking place in different forms in the world now. But you know, what you were talking about, Jonathan, in the early days of the United States, that's exactly what was happening. You know, people were being taken and people were being sold as possessions, which was not okay. But God was establishing here ways for people to relate to each other in ways that were fair. And so there's that six years, you know? They're only allowed to have somebody serve for six years in order to pay off a debt. You know, a married couple, if they went in, if the husband was sold into slavery to pay off a debt, if he sold himself into slavery and he was already married, then they were treated as a married couple. They were treated as part of the community. They were treated as temporary residents of the community. And then when his debt was paid off after that six years, he got to go free with his wife. But then there's that situation where a man marries a woman after he has sold himself into this servitude and he now has a choice to make at the end of that six years. And, you know, if you have a person who truly loves his wife, he's gonna stick with her, right? And so God is giving them this option as a way to show people, you know, God's love and His mercy and His justice. He's giving them a way to be able to stay together. And so, you know, God really is just establishing order. He's allowing a way for families to stay together. He's showing His mercy and His love in establishing these laws, really. And that's probably just some of the answer.

Gary Schick
Right, and there's so much. But I think you guys have really laid the groundwork well. I mean, first of all, differentiating between, really, what's happening even in a lot of Islamic countries to this day where people are, you know, being taken. And we hear about human trafficking, again, right here in the United States. Quite a lot of it. But again, it's people being taken into slavery, and with no way out. And it's completely under the radar of the law, at least, if it's going on here in this country and in other countries. I guess it is legalized, but still in a very bad way. Whereas in the world of biblical times, you know, first of all, the economics of that world were so much different. Today, if you're poor, there are safety nets. You may or may not choose to take them, but they're there. Back then, if you were poor, and had no means to provide for yourself, you would starve to death. Or if you would fall into debt, there was no, you know, way to get out of that. There were no bankruptcy laws that would set you free from it. And I don't even know that there were debtor prisons, so how do you do this? So yeah, by all means, by one of the primary ways that people, and it would be a temporary thing, was to sell yourself. Many people came to this country that way, people forget, many people sold themselves as indentured servants to come here. You know, Englishmen selling themselves to their fellow Englishmen to work in their estates until they had paid off their debt, and would often go on from there and build up their own estates. So I don't, you know, think people really would have a problem with that. At least the idea of this was a temporary means. And then the other thing is, what did it mean to be a slave in the house? Again, we tend to think of the United States model, where the slaves quarters were, you know, kind of down the field. They were very, very poor quarters. The master lives up on the hill, in the mansion. Take a look at Abraham and Sarah, with her maid servant. Take a look at Isaac, Mairus, Leah and Rachel with their maid servants. They're not out in a separate part of the property, they are part of the household. The servants were part of the household. They have, as you guys pointed out, the same rights. And they had responsibilities, but they were, in a sense, part of the family without the rights of full heirs of the family. If we'd have read further into the scripture that you read to us, Jonathan, we would've seen that sometimes a woman from a poor circumstance, her parents may sell, in a sense, sell her to someone as sort of a secondary wife. But if she's not pleasing to him or, you know, maybe she was forgotten as a bride to his son. If that doesn't work out, then she is to be set free, free and clear. I mean, as you pointed out, unlike in the United States, where people were treated as possessions, people remain people in scriptures. And let's remember where this is being written in Exodus, the Hebrews themselves have just come out of slavery. It was, as you both pointed out, just sort of part of the world's system of that time. And so God is moving them towards seeing the humanity in every human. The bride that's provided for by the master is still part of his house. That was the problem. The guy who comes in from outside, and now he's going to basically take away from that household. But he has the option to become a part of that household for life. And in terms of the spiritual application, you know, isn't it in a an interesting thing in the New Testament, we do see even more of the seeds of moving away from slavery. For example, where Paul writes to Philemon about Onesimus, who was a runaway slave, who's now become a Christian and now is a brother in Christ. "He not only asks that you forgive him," in other words, not give him the punishment. Which could have been either a severe beating or death. "But rather receive him back as a brother." And in fact, Paul indicates, and I know you're gonna do even more, indicating basically, "Philemon, it's time to set an Onesimus free." Paul couldn't quite come out and directly say that because of the law of the Roman Empire at that time. But he could sure point Philemon in that direction, which he clearly does. And so this freedom, and it's interesting what the New Testament says to slaves and masters. He says, "slaves, you're free in Christ. You are not serving your earthly master. You're serving Jesus. So regardless of how you're treated by your earthly master do what you do as unto God." And we translate that without even thinking in our context to people working in the workplace, "regardless of your workplace, your boss, those around you, You do what you do as unto the Lord." On the other hand, Paul says to those who are free, the masters, "and you are yourselves enslaved to a heavenly master, and so you treat these others under your authority, under your workspace with the dignity that that is there due." And isn't it interesting then when, for example, James and Jude and, you know, these guys, they're writing the New Testament letters, they identify themselves as a slave of Christ. You know, a servant of Christ, bond slave of Christ, someone who is wholly belongs to the Lord, has become fully His man and fully His representative in the world. And so, you know, and those are some of the positives of that kind of relationship in that time period. They were part of the house, they were obligated to the house. They were to be fully provided for by the house. And they were full representatives of the house when they were sent out on an errand, on a mission with a message. And that is, we are sons of the living God and daughters of the living God through faith in Christ. But we are also his servants, his emissaries, his ambassadors. So is scripture endorsing it? No, it's not endorsing any of the bad, but it's moving the reality of what was going on in the world toward God's ideal for mankind. And also giving us some pictures of how we relate to one another and how we need to be fully God's people. And represent Him well and serve Him well in all things.

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Why Is James Translated That Way Instead of Being Jacob As It Is In The OT?

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Johnathan Hernandez and Gary Schick.

Gary Schick
I don't know guys, I think the questions that Russ is, is giving us are getting harder, do you think? So maybe instead of Ask the Pastor, we should call it Stump the Chump.

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah. I've been stumped a few times.

Gary Schick
But definitely, it sends us digging into the word and that's always a good thing. So here's the question he sent us this week, "Hello guys. Someone told me this last week that the name James in scripture is actually translated as Jacob in the Greek." Which of course the New Testament was written in Greek. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, mostly Hebrew. Then they asked me, "why does it show up as James in our Bible and not Jacob? Feel free to tackle this if you would like and maybe discuss further the translation of the scripture from the original languages. Thanks, Russ." So, as the questions get harder, I hand it off to Jonathan to get us started.

Jonathan Hernandez
Well, as much as I wish I was a Greek scholar, I'm unfortunately not, and so, I'm not gonna try to say some of these names in Greek cause I'm not gonna be very good at it. So from what I was able to gather, I guess there's kind of a couple trains of thought when we look at, why is James not called Jacob in the New Testament? One interesting one that I came across, was that as King James was having the Bible translated, he would rather have the name James in there instead of Jacob. Cause obviously, his name was James. I don't know how much truth is to that one, but I felt that it was pretty interesting as I was digging in. I keep seeing that over and over again, but there's actually nothing that says, "here's the truth behind that or anything." So I just thought that was kind of interesting. As I was digging through some stuff, and people even had YouTube videos about that train of thought, and so I thought those were kind of interesting as I was as digging through So, as we looked, I guess look at the name James, it actually comes out of the name Jacob. And so from what I understand, I guess, and this timeframe, there would've been a lot of people with the name Jacob, cause that's their, you know, kind of an ancestry name. Just like some of you guys, you know? Maybe you have somebody that was part of your family and then everybody's name was derived from that same thing. Like, my dad's name is Peter, and so his dad's name is Peter. My brother's name is Peter, and my brother's son's name is Peter. And so you kind of have this generational name that's going through, and I think this is kind of that same place. Where we see this name Jacob that kind of just was handed down through the generations. And so, as they have this name keep going through, and then as you have these new cultures coming into the land, you kind of have this name kind of start being changed into James over time. And so that's kind of how I was seeing that. Just kind of move through the different time frames and, you know, the Latin culture I guess. Or the different Greek culture coming in and kind of making the name move from, I don't know how to say it, I guess Lavos? I guess that's how they pronouce Lakovos? And that was the, you know, the name kind of just being translated as James rather than Jacob, which, how do you say it was? Lakovos? And so, yeah. See, my Greek's not the best. Sorry. But yeah, so that's kind of how I was understanding this. Just, from that time it just kind of formed into James and so yeah.

Ben Cline
Yeah, it's really interesting just the way that words work over the course of time. You know, one of the things that we see happen every year is that our English Dictionary adopts new language. And a lot of times, those words are developed from words that already exist. But, you know, it's interesting just thinking about the transformation of Jacob into James over the course of time. And one of the things, I think that Jonathan and I were using some of the same resources, so this is good. But, you know, one of the things that they talk about is, that there was so much Greek influence on the language and on the culture during the time of Jesus, that some of these things started to happen. And they talk about how this is a good example of a word getting Greek sized or hellenized, and that's just meaning that it's being influenced by the Greek culture. And so the Greek spelling and the Greek structure ended up, you know, sort of taking over and beginning to transform this name. And I got to thinking about what this looks like in our families today, kinda like you were talking about Jonathan. How those names are passed down. But this is sort of looking at it from a little bit different perspective. You know, on my side of the family, we're Clines, and we spell it, you know, C l i n e. But I would imagine that our ancestors did not have that, you know, more English spelling of a German name. I'm sure it was a K or something like that. You know, and so that has transformed. My wife's family is all from Scandinavian descent. And when they lived in, and I'm not sure if it's the Norwegian or the Swedish side of the family, but when they lived over there, it was Johansen. And when they came over here, it sort of transformed into Johnson. And so there's that, you know, that change that happens because of the influence of the culture. But one of the things that, you know, as you study the Bible, you run into this word etymology. And it's just a bigger word, I guess, that means the study of the course of words over time. You know, how a word changes, how a language changes over time. And one of the things I was reading about, is that before the Latin Vulgate was produced, which the Latin Vulgate would've been the Latin translation of the Bible.

Gary Schick
Which the Roman Church follows to this day,

Ben Cline
The Catholic, yeah. So there, before that time, there was the Greek Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Bible.

Gary Schick
Right. For the Old Testament.

Ben Cline
For the Old Testament. Yeah.

Gary Schick
The New Testament has always been in Greek.

Ben Cline
Yeah. And so the etymology of this is that, the Greek Septuagint was translated into Latin. And so in that version, from what this says, the influence began to change that name Lokovos into a form that looks more like James and is translated into James, from what I understand could be. So that's another possible way to look at it. You know, as there were, and I think that there was some French, you know, involvement in that as well. Where the Latin was changed into the French and there's just a whole lot of history to that.

Gary Schick
A lot of history in Latin and French.

Ben Cline
But, you know, so all of that to say, this is the etymology of that word, that it changes over time. And so we do still see the name Jacob in the New Testament. But it is, you know, almost always referring to the Old Testament characters and not the New Testament characters. And so there's just a lot to it. There really is.

Gary Schick
And just picking up on that, as I looked at those two words in Greek, there's actually in the New Testament, there's both names. There's Yakov, which is just directly translated from Hebrew into Greek as Jacob. And then there's the Greek name, which is the Hebrew equivalent Yakuba, which is always translated James. So there's your difference right there. So it is actually two different Greek words for the same name. One is the Greek name, one is the Hebrew name put into Greek letters. And so yeah, Yakov=Jacob. And then there's something else that goes on. And that is, how does it get from a y sound into the English with a J? And that is because English has a certain amount of heavy influence, as you mentioned, by French, but also by German. And I think it's in German, that for some reason, what we have as the letter J is pronounced as an I or a Y. And so you mentioned in your own family's history, Johansen. Well, Johann is John, and it has a J. And so in the New Testament, Yohannes is John and comes into Johan in German or Scandinavian or whatever it is. And then in English, we come to that letter J and we don't pronounce it with an I or a Y, we say "Ja." And so, you know, for example, we hear about in, you know, Spanish, the name Jesus. Jesus comes from the Greek "Yesus," but when you send it through into English, it ends up with a J. And so we say, "Ja" where in older times they would've said, "Ya" And so these are all ways that language kinda changes over time. But it is the same essential name. And similarly, you have in Hebrew the name Hanah, we say Hannah. And then you meet the New Testament prophetess who celebrates Jesus' birth, Anna. And in English we call her Ana. And both names are the same name, and they all all mean grace. So, Hannah, Anna, Ana. And in Hebrew you have a lot of H sounds and there's a couple of Hebrew letters that have an H sound. There's really not an H letter in Greek. There's kind of a little hyphen to say there's an H sound here, but yeah. So there's a lot of reasons why, especially, names get kind of twisted up as they go from one language to another. And so now I don't know why, and I noticed you guys really didn't find it either, why the M sound comes in there. But just to check what you said, Jonathan, cause it sounded a little suspicious to me too. Is King James' influence on the King James Bible influencing the name? And I'm gonna say, "no," and here's something you readers you can do, or listeners you can do this too. While you were talking, I just looked up the Bible Gateway, which has a whole bunch of translations and I looked for the Wycliffe translation, which predates the King James by a lot, you know, over a hundred years. And it's translated there as James.

Ben Cline
Oh, interesting.

Gary Schick
I don't know why people kind of go off in these in the internet about King James. Friends, it's a witch hunt. It's what do they call it? A conspiracy theory, it's nonsense. A conspiracy. It is 100% nonsense, cause you can go back a hundred years before him and find, "No," it's already being translated as James. And so Yokuba, you're gonna find consistently throughout the New Testament, James, it refers to all those contemporary to Jesus.

Ben Cline
And I think that M sound that's in the end of James, that is from the French influence.

Gary Schick
Probably. Yeah.

Ben Cline
And I think that's where that comes from.

Gary Schick
How did Jacob stay Jacob through all those centuries? We'll never know. And we are not experts in language, but we're thankful for it. And we're thankful for those who've done the hard work for us. I still to try to hang on a little bit to my Greek from seminary days, and I don't know if that's so much, because it was such a painful experience for me. Or a little bit, you know, somebody who influenced me a lot, I'm rereading his works right now is C.S. Lewis. He's a language guy. And so I'm a wannabe language guy. I still keep trying, you know, I've been trying for 30 years and I'm still trying. But I know a lot of guys that just say, "thank the Lord I got through that class and put it on the shelf." But it is important that people do the work, or that some people have, because as we talked about last week, we were talking about orthodoxy. There have been mistranslations through the years that have led to much more serious things than, how do you pronounce a name, for example. As we've talked about, did we talk about this after the show or during the show once how the divine name was actually mistranslated into the King James as Jehovah? Where actually two names are going on there, the Hebrew name Yahweh, and as in order to not say that name, the Jews would say Adonai Lord. And so they put the vowels for Adonai into the word Yahweh. And in the King James it got translated Jehovah. Well that's not a big deal, cause God knows who we're talking about no matter what we call. But then it becomes a little more serious in the Latin Vulgate when St. Jerome, who was a pretty good translator and he did, he had both as you pointed out. He had the septuagint in front of him, but he also was very proficient in Hebrew. But somehow he translates the words for repentance as dependence. And so that creates a whole new train of thought as opposed to merely turning from my sin and trusting in Jesus. Now I've gotta do something about it. And so that leads we Protestants to say in a wrong direction that we were grateful for our Greek studies. To go back to the original and say, "no, it doesn't say dependence, it says repentance." But then even worse, you have somebody who stumbles over John 1 and mistranslates it. "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God." And it's mistranslated by the Jehovah's Witnesses as, "in the beginning was the word, and the word was a God." Which, if whoever did that really knew their Greek, they would know that that would not be a possible translation there, but a mistranlation. And so, and now you've got it taking us, not into a wrong teaching within the Christian Church, but taking us now completely out of Christianity. Because now, at least by Jehovah's witnesses, they don't understand Jesus even to be divine. They just see Him as a very good man. Sorry friends, there's a lot of good men I know, and not one of them can save me. It takes a perfect---the sinless son of God who is God in the flesh. And so, aren't we thankful as English speakers, that is our primary language for those who have carefully done the work to say, what does this text say? So hopefully this conversation has been helpful to our listeners, but you can do some of this work yourselves, listeners, in the sense of: open up Bible gateway and don't just compare the modern translations, but also look at the ancient translations or what's the other one that I look at all the time? Not Bible gateway, but, oh, the You Bible. If you look in the You Bible, you can find a lot of English translations. You can find other languages, and you can find some of the older ones. The one I would be cautious about is the Geneva Bible. Over and over again, I have looked for the Geneva Bible online, but what I'll find is what calls itself the Geneva, but it actually is just the King James. And I don't know why that is, but I'm pretty sure I was looking at that Wycliffe translation. That it really was Wycliffe's translation, which actually predates the Geneva translation into English, which is a whole other conversation, isn't it? So maybe we should end there. Other than what's the edifying part in this? Just to be really grateful that, #1 the original language has been preserved for us. #2, there have been people who love Jesus, love the Lord very much, who have been very careful in the translation to make sure that our modern translations really do get it right. And where there's discrepancies and questions, they'll often put it in the footnotes. And then #3, sometimes we're gonna scratch our heads and say, "why is Jacob the Hebrew name? Jacob become James?" And I think we solved it. In the New Testament, they went with the Greek name, and then through French it becomes from Yokubo to James.

What's New in the Cross Reference Library?

The Fall of Lucifer - For eons the love and kinship of three royal angelic brothers—Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer—have echoed through the hallowed halls of the first heaven. Lucifer, prince regent and eldest brother. Yehovah’s viceroy. Imperial. Brilliant Passionate. Most adored of heaven. Michael, the warrior—commander of the angelic host. Valiant. Wise and steadfast. Gabriel—the youngest prince. Newly inaugurated. The revelator. Throughout eternity Lucifer has been heaven’s favored prince. Gifted. Ardent. Devoted. His throne second only to the Most High—until the fateful moment when he is informed about Yehovah’s new innovation. The creation of a ew race that is not angelic in nature. A race created of a three-hundred-billion-base DNA sequence that will constitute the human genome code. A sweeping epic of origins and mysteries, The Fall of Lucifer tells a tale older than the universe itself. Set in opulent palaces and frightening hell worlds, this is a timeless saga of doubt of demons and angelic warriors, of obsessive love and treason, and of an ancient evil that knows no bounds. 

The Long Way Home - This compelling saga of challenged faith, romance and suspense follows a sister fleeing the tragedies of the Civil War while her brother and sister struggle to protect their home in Richmond. Jesselyn Highwood is travel weary and discouraged—and she must decide whether to continue her perilous journey to Oregon or search for a place to call home before reaching her destination. Back in Virginia, Louisa Highwood and her brother, Zachery, face unending peril trying to smuggle supplies from the North to the hospital in Richmond. But when they are arrested for running contraband, only a pardon from President Lincoln can save them. Will the Highwood family come to a place of peace at last? Or have they lost their beloved Virginia home forever? 

The Lights of Tenth Street - Ronnie Hanover leaves an abusive home situation for her dream of going to college in the city. When she takes a lucrative job waitressing at a strip club on Tenth Street, she finds herself trapped  in the life of an exotic dancer—and tangled up in an espionage scheme drawn straight from today’s headlines. At the other end of Tenth Street, Doug and Sherry must decide if they’re willing to risk their convenience and security to respond to her cry for help. As angelic forces do battle behind the veil, it’s clear that the choice Doug and Sherry make…and how they confront painful issues in their marriage…has the terrifying power to deepen—or illuminate—the spiritual darkness.

What's in the Cross Reference Library? Great Family Living Books

The Beauty of Broken - Are you exhausted by the fairy-tale idea that following Jesus will mean our families won’t suffer? That a parenting formula can guarantee our children will turn out okay? That our families will be immune from being broken because we love God? In The Beauty of Broken, Elisa Morgan, one of today’s most respected female Christian leaders, shares for the first time her very personal story of brokenness—from her family of origin to her family of creation, represented by her husband and two grown children. Over the years, Elisa’s family struggled privately with issues many parents must face, including:

• Alcoholism and drug addiction

• Infertility and adoption

• Teen pregnancy and abortion

• Divorce

• Homosexuality and death

Each story layers onto the next to reveal the brokenness that comes into our lives without invitation. “We’ve bought into the myth of the perfect family,” says Elisa. “Formulaic promises about the family may have originated in well-meaning intentions, but such thinking isn’t realistic. It’s not helpful. It’s not even kind.” Elisa offers hope in the form of “broken family values” that allow parents to grow and thrive with God. Values such as commitment, humility, relinquishment, and respect carry us to new places of understanding. Owning our brokenness shapes us into God’s best idea for us to discover the beauty in ourselves and each member of our families.

The Family You’ve Always Wanted - Marriage and family expert Dr. Gary Chapman offers answers in The Family You’ve Always Wanted. He digs deep into five key characteristics that help create a healthy, nurturing family environment: 

• A heart for service

• Husbands and wives who relate intimately 

• Parents who guide their children

• Children who obey and honor parents

• Husbands who love and lead

In this updated and revised edition of Five Signs of a Loving Family, readers will find great advice, useful tips, and amazing insight into family dynamics illustrated by stories from Chapman’s own family and his counseling experience. Hands-on assessments, questions, and opportunities for deeper discussion offer practical steps to strengthen your family. Begin today building the family you’ve always wanted!

Why Do Bad Things Happen If God Loves Us? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Gary Hashley, Tim Hebbert and Brad Kilthau.

Gary Hashley
Hello and welcome to this edition of Ask the Pastor. A question was sent into KCMI and forwarded to me by Russ Garrett, and it says, "Hello, I googled the simple and often asked question, 'If God loves me like a father and has good things for my life, in accordance to what Christians often purport to convey to non-Christians, then why do bad things happen to me when I had no role in them? Further, and more problematic He doesn't act on my behalf or others when He could. Let me personalize this: Friends went to another city to start a church plant. After they and others prayed for months and believed this was God's leading, within three months of the plant, his wife was murdered leaving him as a single parent. So where was God, without the ward and tepid explanations Christians give? How do you begin to reconcile this? I have children, and I don't have any power like God, and even I would've acted to protect my kids. Thank you." Well, you know, this is a very common question, and this is a question that probably neither Brad nor I will be able to answer to the total complete satisfaction of the questioner. Because living in a sinful world, we are surrounded by bad things happening to people, and not just the evil people of the world, but even the good people of the world. And there are those who would say, "I don't wanna hear the worn and tepid explanations," and that's a legitimate thought. but yet maybe those ward and tepid explanations are truly biblically based and faith based understandings. One thing I notice in scripture is that I don't find anywhere that God promises me, or promises you as a follower of Jesus, that life is gonna be easy, and that He is never going to allow anything bad to happen in your life. In fact, in Isaiah 30:19, 20, we find both sides of this. Verse 19, for a people shall dwell in Zion, in Jerusalem; you shall weep no more. He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry. As soon as He hears it, He answers you. Now, that sounds fantastic. It sounds like, you know, God's gonna step in and everything's going to be good. The next verse, verse 20, "and though the Lord give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, yet your Teacher will not hide himself anymore, but your eyes shall see your Teacher." So, one sentence right after another sentence, the first almost leading you to believe that God is gonna make sure that everything goes well, "you'll weep no more. As soon as you cry, I'll hear, I'll answer." And then the very next sentence says, "the Lord might give the bread of adversity and the water of affliction." Now, there are those who would say that if bad things happen to good people, if God is there and He's loving and He's wise and He doesn't step in, then it must mean that God really isn't there. In fact, one author says, "you know, there are some assumptions, a fact, and then a conclusion that we can approach in two different ways. Assumption #1: an all powerful God would be able to end suffering. Assumption #2: an all loving God would desire to end suffering. Fact: suffering exists. Conclusion: an all powerful, all loving God, therefore, does not exist." And I have a dear friend who I went to Bible school with. I flew airplanes with and ministered alongside of, who had two teenage sons killed in an automobile accident. And now he claims he was a fool to ever believe in God, because if God didn't stop the bad thing from happening, then he's not going to serve God. But on the other side of the page, he says, "assumption 1: an all powerful God does exist. Assumption 2: an all loving God does exist. The fact that suffering exists then leads to the conclusion: God must have loving reasons which he is able to achieve for permitting suffering." I'll tell you, when I come across times in my life where life is hard and suffering is a reality, I like to remind myself of what God said through Isaiah 55:9, "for as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." And I just remind myself that God doesn't necessarily think the way I think. Because basically the question is saying, "well, if I as a parent would step in and would make sure my children don't endure suffering, then if God is a loving father, then He should do what I think I would do if it were me." And yet, the fact of the matter is, God thinks differently than we do. He never told us that what seems normal to us is normal to Him. He didn't tell us that what seems reasonable to us will be reasonable to Him. And so we face these struggles. I think of Hebrews 11, before I turn this over to Brad. You know, in Hebrews 11, the faith chapter about these faithful people, you know, and early on we read about Adam and Abel and Enoch and Noah and Abraham and Sarah, and all these through Joseph and Moses. And then it talks about, you know, "by faith, great things happened." He says, "what can I say? Time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak, Sampson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stop the mouths of lions, quench the power of fire, escape the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women even receive back their dead by resurrection," and some say, "yes, I like that." But then it says, "some were tortured, refusing to accept release so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered, mocking and flogging, even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated." So when I look at that, I realize that there are times where God does step in and wonderful things happen. And there's times He allows hard times in people's lives. Now, I can't say anything I've said is the absolute answer that's going to solve this in everybody's mind. But I'll tell you, as I've lived life for 65 years myself, as I've gone through difficult times, I find that what the Bible teaches about God's mind and God's love and my need to trust Him, it may not be in some people's minds the best answer. But in my mind, it's the better answer than any other answer out there. So yeah, do tough things happen in people's lives? You're listening to a guy whose mom died of breast cancer when I was 29 years old. You're listening to a guy whose nephew died at five days old, because only half of his heart was developed in the womb. But yet, I have found that trusting God and His wisdom and His love and his sovereignty, and trusting that He has a plan, I I don't find that as worn and tepid. I find that as encouraging. Pastor Brad, tell me what's going through your head right now.

Brad Kilthau
Well, I know one thing, Gary. When you're talking about Isaiah 55, and we use that a lot, and we have to because again, God's ways are above our ways, and we have to keep that in mind. But as I was looking at this question too, and I don't wanna be disrespectful in any way to the listener who sent this in. And I don't want to come across that I don't have compassion for them and where they are and what they're thinking. But my first thoughts is this, we don't get saved to be kept safe from harm and disasters here on this earth. We get saved to ensure that we will not have to pay for our sin/debt in hell forever and ever. We have to think about the other side. We have to think about heaven, you know, and we have to keep in mind that God doesn't owe us anything here on Earth. It doesn't matter if we go to church every week, it doesn't matter if we give our life savings to all the charities to feed people. It doesn't even matter if we plant churches. God still doesn't owe us anything, okay? And so when I looked over this question, "if God loves me like a father and has good things for my life, then why do bad things happen to me when I have no role in them?" And as I looked at that question, it appears to me that our listener has figured out God to be made up of some type of a merit system. That if I do, then God does, and we have to understand again, that's not our God. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes that very clear, especially when it comes to our salvation, "for by grace through faith we're saved." It's not of us. It's not of our works. It all a gift from God, and we think about this gift. It's a gift that we don't deserve. And then the second half of the question, "why do bad things happen to me when I had no role in them?" I think that brings out that there's a misconception of who we really are as human beings. Because when we think about it, you know, if we're born on this planet, as a human being, we're a descendant of Adam, and therefore we have that sin nature that Adam passed on. And secondly, we have all sinned and sinned and sinned and sinned repeatedly against God. So to say that I had no role in this, well, we have to remember that we're all sinners. I love what it says in Ecclesiastes 7:20. It says, "there's not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins." Romans 3:23, of course, "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." 1 John 1:8, "for if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. And the truth is not in us." All right, so here's a thought. We all are contributing to the situation that we live in, and the bad things are happening on this earth because we're all sinners. Bad and horrible things are gonna happen to all of us. And the reason those bad and horrible things happen, is because we have this sin issue, and sin has brought about these horrible, horrible things. And when we think about us saying, "I've never caused any of this. I didn't cause this with this person." Well, what have we caused? We've caused sin. We sinned ourselves, and there is judgment and there's consequences for that. So to say we don't have any role in the bad things that happen here on Earth is basically saying, "well, I'm pretty good. I mean I'm perfect, I'm holy." You know, sin brings death. Sin brings illness, sin brings hardship, sin brings loneliness. And we've all contributed to the world's sin problem. And when I think about this horrible thing that happened to this woman, the blood of this woman is not on God's hands. Her blood's really on our hands because we're the ones who've sinned against a holy God. And so, even though we're all sinners, even though we all contribute to the horrible situation of this world through our sins and the hardships and everything that comes upon people, we gotta see the other side of this. God in His great love died for us. While we were still these horrible sinners, Jesus, who was perfect by the way, He paid our sin debt in full. He shed His blood on the cross, and therefore we're free from what we do deserve. And that freedom comes by faith in Christ. We always go to John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He sent his only begotten son. That whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." I mean, think about that, Gary. When you think about it, Jesus came and gave us a gift that we don't deserve. He gave us a gift, a freedom from our sin problem. And the truth of the matter is, He's taken care of that eternity situation already. And then we also know that in the end, when He returns, there is not going to be any sin at all. It's gonna be eradicated completely. But until then, we don't have to live in despair. We don't have to, even when there's evil things happening to us, we realize that as believers, the moment we die, we go into the presence of the Lord. And when I heard about this woman who's involved in God's work in planting churches, most likely she's a child of God and a believer. And so most likely, as we know from the Bible, at the moment she died she went into the presence of the Lord. She gained, gained, and gained. She went to heaven forever to be with Christ in the Father's house. She's not cheated out of anything. She's got the best of the best. And yes, compassion and love needs to go out for the husband, but I think he's a believer also planting churches for the Lord. Yes, he's hurting. Yes, he's mourning, but not as those who don't have hope. This is a short time. Soon he will be united in the presence of the Heavenly Father forever and ever. We've gotta keep in mind that God acted already to protect his kids. If you're looking for something right now to protect, He already did that 2,000 years ago. And that protection cannot be taken away from us. It is eternal security that we have in Christ. And so I think we have to keep the right perspective here. The perspective is that Jesus paid it all. The Father has already protected us, and He offers that free gift for us to take by faith at any moment.

Gary Hashley
I think the difference comes because doubts and questions come from feelings. Faith is a choice. I choose faith. So Father, those who are suffering right now and wondering where you are, remind them you are right there with them in their suffering just as you were right there with your own son when He suffered for us on the cross.

What's in the Cross Reference Library? Best Sellers from Joel C. Rosenberg

The Last Jihad - Jon Bennett and Erin McCoy are two of the shrewdest strategists on Wall Street and close friends of the president of the United States. Their secret project: a billion-dollar oil deal off the coast of Tel Aviv and Gaza that could form the basis of a historic peace treaty and bring enormous wealth to every Israeli and Palestinian. But nothing has prepared Jon or Erin for the terror that lies ahead. 

• Terrorists hijack a jet plane and fly a kamikaze mission into an American city. 

• Israeli commandos foil a nuclear attack but find evidence that the next targets could be Washington and New York.

• And suddenly the United States finds itself in a war in the Middle East over terrorism and weapons of mass destruction that will forever change the course of human history.

The Last Days - Osama bin Laden is dead. Saddam’s regime is buried. Baghdad lies in ruins. Now the eyes of the world are on Jon Bennett and Erin McCoy, two senior White House advisors, as they arrive in the Middle East to offer a historic Arab-Israeli peace plan and the American president’s new vision of freedom and democracy. But in the shadows lie men whose hearts are filled with evil—men for whom the prospects of peace go against everything they believe. And soon, one terrifying scheme after another begins to unfold:

• An Iranian plot to send suicide bombers into the U.S.

• A terrorist plot to assassinate the prime minister of Israel

• A Jewish plot to blow up the Dome of the Rock

As Jon and Erin face a battle for control of Jerusalem, a battle for control of the Holy Land, and an Iraqi plan to rebuild ancient Babylon, they can’t help but wonder: Are such signs evidence that they are living in the last days before the return of Christ?

What's in the Cross Reference Library? The Journey Away From Insecurity

Well, Girl - If you're skinny, fat, short, tall, or somewhere in between . . . If you've ever thought that losing weight would lead to happiness . . . If you've ever avoided a mirror because you didn't want to see your reflection . . . If you've found Jesus or you're still searching . . . Well, Girl, You've Come to the Right Place. You'll find a sassy, funny, authentic, and encouraging friend in master word weaver Jami Amerine, as she comes alongside you to share God's overwhelming grace and patience in an inside-out journey to wellness. She'll introduce you to a heavenly Father who adores you, right where you are. And she'll let you have a peek into the insane ride of her life that led her to complete freedom after years of hating herself--while she was completely and utterly adored by Jesus. This transformational listen will set you free. Hilarious, raw, and somehow poetic, Well, Girl offers scriptural truths, honest and thought-provoking ideas about wellness, and an in-depth look at a life free from culture's lies--with increased self-worth, better overall health, and more confidence in your physical appearance.

So Long, Insecurity - Perhaps one of the biggest issues all women face is their own insecurity. Beth Moore, one of today's most admired and trusted Christian writers, wants women to be free from the insecurity trap. So Long, Insecurity will strike a chord with women everywhere, as Beth speaks truth into the lives of readers, showing them how to deal with their innermost fears, rediscover their God-given dignity, and develop a whole new perspective--a stronger sense of self. Women of all ages and backgrounds will resonate with this message of security and discover truths that will free them emotionally and spiritually and lead them to a better life as they walk with God.

What Is The Meaning Of Speaking In Tongues? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Gary Hashley, Tim Hebbert and Brad Kilthau.

Brad Kilthau
The question that we're going to try to address today came in from one of our listeners. And the question goes this way, she said, "I have always wanted to know about speaking in tongues and the meaning of it. I've never really understood it and the meaning of it." She said, "my mother had a friend years ago that spoke in tongues, and is this practice still used?" So Gary, I'll let you have some thoughts on that if you'll start us out.

Gary Hashley
Well, I guess I'd like to begin by saying, it's good to be back. This question about speaking in tongues, I will have to admit that this is one of the subjects, that in my 40 years as a pastor, it's a subject that has caused great confusion. It has caused great consternation with people when someone sees it in a different light than they do. We acknowledge, Brad and I both, that there are churches that really focus on this spiritual gift of speaking in tongues. And there are churches that don't see it as something necessarily that God is using today. So we're just gonna try and explain it biblically, and share a little bit from our hearts. We're not here to pick on anybody, and we are for sure not here to put anybody down. We're just here to try and answer the question. And I guess the beginning of the answer needs to be in scripture, where this all comes from. To start with, Acts 2 says, "when the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven, a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as a fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now, there were dwelling in Jerusalem, Jews, developed men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound, the multitude came together and they were bewildered because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished saying, 'Are not all these who are speaking, Galilean? And how is it that we hear, each of us, in his own native language?" And then the author of Acts goes on, "Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians---we hear them telling in our own tongues, the mighty works of God.' And all we're amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, 'what does this mean?' But others, mocking said, 'they're filled with new wine." One thing we see here when, 'tongues,' pops in on the scene, Brad, is that it was a known language. It was a language that people understood. It was their native language. They may have understood Greek, the trade language, but when they were hearing it, it was in their own native, or heart language we would call it today. And it was something God did so that all those people there could hear about Jesus. I mean, by the time Peter's done, 3,000 people excepted Jesus as savior. And they were from a variety of places, because it was Pentecost they were coming from all over for the feast for the festival. And so it was languages. I mean, the Greek word has to do with dialects. And when we think of a dialect, we think of a language that a people group speak. So, is this practice still used? Evidently, not in the line in which it was used here. Because in fact, let me just share: I had a dear friend who was from a charismatic church. He was a pastor, and he was a very good friend of mine. We knew we didn't agree on this subject of spiritual gifts. And they were visiting one day, and I wasn't being unkind, I was really curious. I asked him, I said, "so you guys send missionaries around the world?" He says, "oh, yes we do." And I asked him, "well, do your missionaries go to language school?" And he says, "oh, of course," and I asked him why. He said, "what you mean 'why?" I said, "well, if you have the gift of tongues in Acts 2, God used that gift of tongues and wouldn't it be great if missionaries could parachute out of an airplane in the midst of people group they've never met? And the spirit let them immediately communicate with those people and share the good news of Jesus with them?" He said, "but Gary, that's just not how it works. So to answer that part of the question, "is this practice still being used?" Not in this way, it's not being used. Brad?

Brad Kilthau
Yeah, you know, it amazes me too. And it shouldn't, because we find a lot of these things in the church today. But there are two basic descriptions of what speaking in tongues is identified as that you were getting to, Gary, as I guess at least the definition of it. And there's the two groups, is of course, first of all, there's a group in the church that believe that the gift enables them to express one's inner feelings or praises to God by a unique, sometimes non-rational utterance. And they say that the gift is not speaking in a foreign language, as we often claim. They say, "yes, it may be unknown to the speaker, but it also could be, as they say, 'known to God' and it's the Holy Spirit sometimes giving up praise back to himself by using us as a vessel to do that." Another thing that's part of that camp is, sometimes it's shared that speaking in tongues is proof of salvation for that person. And they use examples out of the book of Acts and also in 1 Corinthians. And then of course there's the other camp, as we believe, and as you were just reading about Gary in Acts 2. That the gift was used in the early church, and even somewhat after that, as being able to speak in a foreign language that the person had never learned, had never had any ability to do. And all of a sudden, they can speak the wonderful things of God to people in that foreign language as we know it today of Pentecost. And of course this group, and I would have to say I'm part of that group, we say it's no evidence that a person is in a sense filled by the Holy Spirit by being able to speak in a foreign language like that. The sealing of the Holy Spirit comes at the moment when we immediately put our faith and trust in the Lord. I had a dear friend too, some years ago, and we got into the conversation about speaking in tongues. And it troubled me, because the young man told me, "I put my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus, I'm going to heaven." But he said, "I'm still waiting to be filled by the Holy Spirit." And I said, "really?" He said, "yeah." And he looked at me puzzled, cause I was puzzled with that statement. And basically what he was waiting for was the gift of speaking in tongues to prove that he is filled with the Holy Spirit. And of course, I went on to share with him, I believe that a person at the moment they put their faith in the Lord, they're filled with the Spirit. They're sealed by the Holy Spirit and they're on their way to heaven. And so we ran into some roadblocks there. And of course we had to agree to disagree, and walk away from each other. But speaking in tongues, I don't think was ever meant to be an exclusive determination that somebody is a believer and in dwelt by the Holy Spirit. In my studies, as I look at the Bible, there's only about three occasions in the book of Acts where speaking in tongues is actually accompanied by the salvation of the people; Acts 2:10, 19, but only those three occasions. When you get into all the rest of the accounts, you find that thousands of people were putting their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. And there was no mention at all of speaking in tongues. There was no confirmation that they were believers because they were speaking in tongues and so forth. And so I don't think the New Testament teaches at all that speaking in tongues is the evidence, and the only evidence that a person has received the Holy Spirit; speaking in tongues. It's a gift that obviously God used, again as we look at the Bible, it's to get the message out to the ends of the earth. Recently I've been doing a study through the book of Daniel, and we've come into the part of where we're talking about the Greek empire and Alexander the Great, and how he was able to hellanize the entire civilized world and make the common language, the Greek language and so forth. And of course he even built roads between all the cities and whatnot. Which when the first century Christians came along, missionaries, they had roads, they had one common language, they had the septuagint to use and all of that. But yet as the Lord used, as you were saying, Gary, they could have used the Greek language, but they used the native language of the people to basically show that something miraculous has happened in the lives of these people. It was a signed gift to show that something miraculous had happened in their lives. And it was to wake up and to get the movement that Jesus promised would happen, of getting the gospel out to the ends of the world. And then another thought I have, when it comes to speaking in tongues is, sometimes it can be the thing that is dwelled upon; it can actually become the center part of someone's, "Faith" or "Christianity," of when it shouldn't be. I mean, we should never base our walk with the Lord upon spiritual ecstasy or excitement or things of that sort. Our walk should always be based upon the truth of the scriptures. And there is some times, when I'll be studying a passage of scripture and God reveals a new truth to me, and I gotta admit, there's an exciting, enthusiastic feeling that just kinda runs through me and I can't wait to tell somebody else about it or whatnot. But I think that's the excitement that we get. We don't get fired up and excited about doing things because we have this spiritual signed gift. We get excited because we learn a new truth. When we learn a new truth from the word of God, that's what gives us our excitement. The excitement doesn't come from the ability to have a spiritual signed gift.

Gary Hashley
I remember years and years ago when I was listening to Chuck Swindoll on the radio in the car, and he was in 1 Corinthians, and he's teaching about tongues. And he explained that, you know, he doesn't see tongues as, you know, as big a thing today as maybe other groups do. But he did make an interesting statement. He said, "if you're going to practice speaking in tongues," he said, "I would just ask that you look at scripture and make sure you do it biblically." Because Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14, he says, "if any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three at each turn and let someone interpret. But if there's no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God." So he basically said, "okay, if you believe this is really for today, then you should also believe that the instructions Paul gave and that this isn't a free for all, two at the most." Three, there must be an interpreter, and if there's not an interpreter, then you shouldn't be in a church service speaking in tongues. But it's interesting, because in that same section, he talks about that as directions for speaking in tongues. Then he talks about prophesying or preaching the word, sharing the truth of the word of God. So he talks about speaking tongues, speaking prophetically, but then he says the women should keep silent. So it's like, "okay, in the church, as Paul was instructing them, never more than two or three speaking tongues in a service ever. If there's not an interpreter, prophecy is even better. But the women aren't to be the ones speaking." So you would have to ask yourself, how is it going in our church? Are we following those instructions? In fact, Paul himself said, "I'd rather speak a handful of words that people can understand than thousands of words people can't."