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This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Johnathan Hernandez, and Gary Schick.

Gary Schick
Hey guys, it's great to be together. We've got another interesting question that was passed along to me. Exodus 21:1-6 is the passage that's being asked about, and Jonathan's gonna read it to us. But the question is, "can you talk about slavery and the Bible's seeming endorsement of it? Also, it seems strange that a man would have to choose between his freedom from slavery and keeping his wife and kids. What does it mean that the slave's wife and children belong to the slave's master? Is there a spiritual truth that God is trying to show us here? I'm confused."

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah. So Exodus 21:1 starts out, "now these are the judgements which you shall set before them. If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh, he shall go free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself. If he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife and she has bore him sons or daughters, the wife and the children shall be her masters, and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, my children, I will not go out free.' Then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl and he shall serve him forever." So that's the scripture that they gave us for today. And I think for me, a lot of times when we look at the scriptures, we look at them through our current circumstances, or the eyes that we've seen here with slavery. When we hear "slavery," we think of it as how we've grown up learning about it, I guess, through school. And, you know, how slavery was in the early times of the United States history and stuff kind of like that. And so we think of it, now slavery is evil like, I hope people don't think, as we talk through this, that we're trying to justify something or anything. But, you know, slavery in itself is evil. And it's not something that should be happening. And hopefully it's not happening currently, but we know that it is happening all across the world right now. So we look at this and we see that slavery, I guess, in the Bible we see it throughout the Bible, happening. And slavery was, I guess, permissible in certain situations as long as slaves were regarded as a full member of the community. And we kind of see this in Genesis 17:12, it says, "throughout your generation, every male amongst you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner. And so you see that even slaves were having to walk through the same things that the Hebrews were having to walk through. The slaves would also get the opportunity to have the same amount of rest. It says, "work six days and on the seventh day, rest." And so even the slaves were held to that standard. Like, "you're gonna work six days for me as a slave owner, right? But on that seventh day, we're gonna give you rest and you're gonna be able to recuperate, hopefully and be able to go on." They were to be treated like humans, cause that's, you know, even though they're slaves, they're still humans. And I think that's some of the difference that maybe we're seeing in the slavery that we've seen happen in the early US history; is a lot of the slaves weren't seen as human. You know, so we dehumanize things so that way it's easier to do things that maybe we shouldn't be doing to other humans. Not saying that back then in the new or in the Old Testament, that people weren't dehumanized. I think you were still seeing some of these things happening. And so I think you see, like, even here, like it talks about the Hebrew slave. They're gonna work six years for that person, and then in the seventh year they're gonna be free. And within our question it talks about, "what about the women and the children?" And I was reading through a bunch of different forums, I guess, on this yet last night and trying to, "okay, where are we seeing this." I've seen some people talk about, "okay, in this passage it doesn't say forever. And so maybe they're serving their six years, and then they'll be free on their seventh. But it doesn't really support that either." And so you kind of have this back and forth on that. What does that mean? And I guess for the way I read that, if the husband was willing to stay and become a slave forever, more than likely his wife and his children were the master's forever. Cause otherwise, why would you, you know, stay knowing that, "hey, your wife's gonna be out in two years," you know? Like maybe you'd, you know, work close to that, to where your family's a slave at, so that way you could be with them. But I guess I'm not really sure on that. So yeah.

Ben Cline
Yeah, these are, you know, difficult questions to deal with and sometimes to understand even from studying through what scripture has to say. But again, it goes a lot to the historical context of what's going on here. And again, like you said Jonathan, we have, you know, such a tendency to look at things through the context of how we understand things in our modern times. And, you know, in our modern times we understand slavery to be, basically, kidnapping somebody and owning them, which again, is evil. It's not okay. But a lot of times, the slavery or the servanthood that is being talked about in the Old Testament, and especially here in this passage in Exodus 21 this is talking about, you know, slavery within the Hebrew culture. And so this is, you know, somebody who owes somebody else a debt, and basically sells themself into servanthood to a person that's called their master now. And so this is something that we could compare to, you know, like indentured servitude. So they're basically there to pay off a debt. And the thing that I love about this passage of scripture, where God is establishing the law, is that he's taking something that the world has been doing for, you know, so long. You see a lot of examples of slavery in scripture of things that were happening in the world, where slavery was taking place. But what God is doing here is, He's regulating it and He's helping people to see that they can't just, you know, do whatever they want and take advantage of other people. And so He's really taking some time to establish some rules here and actually establish some rights, or some basic rights for the slaves, or the servants. And so, you know, slavery is fundamentally different in some instances, you know, from our modern slavery versus what was happening back in the time when this was written. And the thing that was happening that's so interesting, as you read through this passage a little bit further in Exodus 21, the modern slavery that we understand today is expressively forbidden. It's in verse 16 of Exodus 21 that the kidnapping and selling of people is expressively forbidden. And so modern slavery was expressly breaking that law that was established by God. But the interesting thing as you're looking, you know, at slavery in the Bible, is that oftentimes it was like this economic arrangement. And one big difference is that it was never one race feeling a superiority over another race. And that being the determining factor as to whether or not somebody could be a slave. And so that was, you know, a huge difference between what was happening back then and what's happening, not what's currently happening, but I guess there's probably still a lot of slavery that's taking place in different forms in the world now. But you know, what you were talking about, Jonathan, in the early days of the United States, that's exactly what was happening. You know, people were being taken and people were being sold as possessions, which was not okay. But God was establishing here ways for people to relate to each other in ways that were fair. And so there's that six years, you know? They're only allowed to have somebody serve for six years in order to pay off a debt. You know, a married couple, if they went in, if the husband was sold into slavery to pay off a debt, if he sold himself into slavery and he was already married, then they were treated as a married couple. They were treated as part of the community. They were treated as temporary residents of the community. And then when his debt was paid off after that six years, he got to go free with his wife. But then there's that situation where a man marries a woman after he has sold himself into this servitude and he now has a choice to make at the end of that six years. And, you know, if you have a person who truly loves his wife, he's gonna stick with her, right? And so God is giving them this option as a way to show people, you know, God's love and His mercy and His justice. He's giving them a way to be able to stay together. And so, you know, God really is just establishing order. He's allowing a way for families to stay together. He's showing His mercy and His love in establishing these laws, really. And that's probably just some of the answer.

Gary Schick
Right, and there's so much. But I think you guys have really laid the groundwork well. I mean, first of all, differentiating between, really, what's happening even in a lot of Islamic countries to this day where people are, you know, being taken. And we hear about human trafficking, again, right here in the United States. Quite a lot of it. But again, it's people being taken into slavery, and with no way out. And it's completely under the radar of the law, at least, if it's going on here in this country and in other countries. I guess it is legalized, but still in a very bad way. Whereas in the world of biblical times, you know, first of all, the economics of that world were so much different. Today, if you're poor, there are safety nets. You may or may not choose to take them, but they're there. Back then, if you were poor, and had no means to provide for yourself, you would starve to death. Or if you would fall into debt, there was no, you know, way to get out of that. There were no bankruptcy laws that would set you free from it. And I don't even know that there were debtor prisons, so how do you do this? So yeah, by all means, by one of the primary ways that people, and it would be a temporary thing, was to sell yourself. Many people came to this country that way, people forget, many people sold themselves as indentured servants to come here. You know, Englishmen selling themselves to their fellow Englishmen to work in their estates until they had paid off their debt, and would often go on from there and build up their own estates. So I don't, you know, think people really would have a problem with that. At least the idea of this was a temporary means. And then the other thing is, what did it mean to be a slave in the house? Again, we tend to think of the United States model, where the slaves quarters were, you know, kind of down the field. They were very, very poor quarters. The master lives up on the hill, in the mansion. Take a look at Abraham and Sarah, with her maid servant. Take a look at Isaac, Mairus, Leah and Rachel with their maid servants. They're not out in a separate part of the property, they are part of the household. The servants were part of the household. They have, as you guys pointed out, the same rights. And they had responsibilities, but they were, in a sense, part of the family without the rights of full heirs of the family. If we'd have read further into the scripture that you read to us, Jonathan, we would've seen that sometimes a woman from a poor circumstance, her parents may sell, in a sense, sell her to someone as sort of a secondary wife. But if she's not pleasing to him or, you know, maybe she was forgotten as a bride to his son. If that doesn't work out, then she is to be set free, free and clear. I mean, as you pointed out, unlike in the United States, where people were treated as possessions, people remain people in scriptures. And let's remember where this is being written in Exodus, the Hebrews themselves have just come out of slavery. It was, as you both pointed out, just sort of part of the world's system of that time. And so God is moving them towards seeing the humanity in every human. The bride that's provided for by the master is still part of his house. That was the problem. The guy who comes in from outside, and now he's going to basically take away from that household. But he has the option to become a part of that household for life. And in terms of the spiritual application, you know, isn't it in a an interesting thing in the New Testament, we do see even more of the seeds of moving away from slavery. For example, where Paul writes to Philemon about Onesimus, who was a runaway slave, who's now become a Christian and now is a brother in Christ. "He not only asks that you forgive him," in other words, not give him the punishment. Which could have been either a severe beating or death. "But rather receive him back as a brother." And in fact, Paul indicates, and I know you're gonna do even more, indicating basically, "Philemon, it's time to set an Onesimus free." Paul couldn't quite come out and directly say that because of the law of the Roman Empire at that time. But he could sure point Philemon in that direction, which he clearly does. And so this freedom, and it's interesting what the New Testament says to slaves and masters. He says, "slaves, you're free in Christ. You are not serving your earthly master. You're serving Jesus. So regardless of how you're treated by your earthly master do what you do as unto God." And we translate that without even thinking in our context to people working in the workplace, "regardless of your workplace, your boss, those around you, You do what you do as unto the Lord." On the other hand, Paul says to those who are free, the masters, "and you are yourselves enslaved to a heavenly master, and so you treat these others under your authority, under your workspace with the dignity that that is there due." And isn't it interesting then when, for example, James and Jude and, you know, these guys, they're writing the New Testament letters, they identify themselves as a slave of Christ. You know, a servant of Christ, bond slave of Christ, someone who is wholly belongs to the Lord, has become fully His man and fully His representative in the world. And so, you know, and those are some of the positives of that kind of relationship in that time period. They were part of the house, they were obligated to the house. They were to be fully provided for by the house. And they were full representatives of the house when they were sent out on an errand, on a mission with a message. And that is, we are sons of the living God and daughters of the living God through faith in Christ. But we are also his servants, his emissaries, his ambassadors. So is scripture endorsing it? No, it's not endorsing any of the bad, but it's moving the reality of what was going on in the world toward God's ideal for mankind. And also giving us some pictures of how we relate to one another and how we need to be fully God's people. And represent Him well and serve Him well in all things.