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This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline and Johnathan Hernandez.
Jonathan Hernandez
So this morning, I guess we're gonna kind of hit on a topic that is maybe a little bit more for pastors or people that are in ministry. But I know the listeners would enjoy hearing some of these things and also as listeners, and maybe you have a new pastor that's stepping into the role as a pastor. Maybe you can hear some of these things and know, "okay, well maybe they may experience some of these things, so let's help them along the way and give them a little bit of a hand." So our question is, "what would you say to your younger-ministry self if you were starting all over again?" And so one of the first things that popped into my mind as, you know, as I was looking this over and just remembering. So I started as a senior pastor at River of Life Church on December 1st, 2012. And so, that was a little over 10 years ago. And stepping into that role, I was just, "what do I do!? How do I do this?" You know, this was my first ministry role. And so it was fun, but it was also a little hectic and a little, "I don't know what to do." And so I remember thinking back, you know, years later, and somebody had said this to me, he said, "Jonathan, your first calling is to intimacy with Christ." And I was like, "Wow, that makes so much sense." You know, and then your next ministry, or your next calling, is to your spouse. And so for me, it would be my wife and then my family, and then the ministry. And I think we know this, but as you start getting into ministry and you start all the busyness of life, what happens is you start trying to flip that around and start pushing ministry first and then everything else. And then your wife's like, "whoa, wait a minute, what about me?" You know? And then obviously, God too is like, "Wait a minute, you're forgetting me." So we gotta make sure that we keep that in order. You know, make sure that we're having that time with Christ and making sure that we are spiritually healthy. You know, cause if we're not spiritually healthy, it's hard to help other people get to that point.
Ben Cline
Yeah, that's right. And that's funny that you say that cuz that's similar to something that was on my list too. You know, make sure that your personal time with the Lord doesn't get pushed aside for: studying for Sunday or, you know, doing other ministry things. And, you know, that seems counterintuitive because you're a pastor, right? You should be fine. But that's not true. You know, we need to take that time to have a close walk, a close relationship with Jesus so that we're spiritually prepared for handling whatever it is that might come through the doors. And so that's a great one to start out with. Another one that I was thinking of as well is, and this would especially be to my young ministry self is, you don't know everything and you never will. You know, my path into ministry was a little bit different than yours. But, you know, we went to Bible school for a few years and we had decided early on that we wanted to go into church planting ministry. And so we took some time praying about it, you know, visiting the place where we wanted to go. And, you know, by the time that you finished Bible school, and they really do warn you against this, but you know, you're young and impulsive. So they warn you against this. But, you know, you go out onto the ministry field and feel like, "I got this, you know, I can handle anything that comes my way." And then you're humbled very, very quickly. So, you know, that's something that I would try to get my younger self to listen to is, you know, "just realize that, you know, the ministry is not something that you step into knowing how to handle every situation." It's something that you're actually going to be learning in for your entire life.
Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah. That's definitely good, cause I remember those moments. "Oh, I know it all." And then, "Nope. I don't know that." You know, and that's such a good one too. You know, the other thing, you know, one of the other things I wrote down, it's kind of along those same lines too. Is, you need to be in the word for yourself, not just for your sermon. You know, you kind of hit on that too. And, you know, there's so many times that you're looking at the week and it's like, "where do I sit?" Things like, "how do I schedule my week when I already know that there's so much stuff going on?" And I know people are like, "well, pastors only work 45 minutes a week. On Sundays." Well, no, there's so much more to it. And then if you're bi-vocational, you know, there's even more to it. Trying to squeeze everything in, you know, on top of already having work and home and stuff. And so, you know, I knew that there was weeks that I'm like, "gosh, how do I get both of those going?" And so those were tough. So my next one would be, "people will leave and it will hurt, but it's not always your fault." Right? Cause we always blame ourselves if somebody's leaving. "It's because of me." And that's not always the case, you know? There's times, you know, I remember people leave and it was after I had preached a sermon and, you know, and I was like, "oh, well maybe I shouldn't have preached that." And then I would sit back and I was like, "okay, did I preach what God wanted me to preach?" If it was a yes, then obviously you're preaching what you're supposed to, right? If the Holy Spirit's leading you to that, that's what you're supposed to preach. And so, you know, people will leave and it's going to hurt. And I think that's why it's important for pastors to have a tough, you know, a tough skin in a sense. You know, because people leave for all kinds of reasons. You know, it could be the smallest reason. It could be your fault. You know, there's multiple things and, you know, the best thing for us to do is to bless them on the way out. And just pray for them and pray that they will find a church home where they can grow and that they can mature in Christ. And so those are always tough moments, you know, cause I'm like, "oh, I want you here," you know, and the different things like that. And so, you know, I remember my pastor saying, "Jonathan, just keep praying for them," you know, bless them on their way out." You know, "you'll be fine. God will provide." And He always did.
Ben Cline
Yeah. And that's the thing about the body of Christ is that, you know, God has made us all a little bit differently. We all deal with things in different ways and we all feel like we have different needs for our families. So, you know, as a pastor, yes, it does hurt when people walk out the door and say that they're not coming back. But, you know, and that's something also, you know, that you experience as a new pastor in a church that you had not been the pastor for before. But there's gonna be people who just decide that it's not for them. For whatever reason, who knows. But, you know, that's a really good point and, you know, maybe a good reminder to our listeners who are our churchgoers. To, you know, really understand that these are things, you know, decisions that really do affect people.
Jonathan Hernandez
We're pastors, but we still have feelings.
Ben Cline
Yeah, exactly. And another one that, you know, I wish I would've taken on and really tried to understand, as you know, a younger pastor in ministry, is the importance of rest. You know, that's something that will catch up with you every time. And, you know, I'm not even a type of person who has a lot of energy in the first place. But I think I can tend to be a little bit of a workaholic and say, "oh, I don't really need to worry about resting this week." And then it just builds up and builds up and builds up and then you hit a wall and you're just like, "I can't do this anymore." And so, you know, resting is extremely, extremely important. You know, I know that people have different ideas about the application of the Sabbath. About that Sabbath rest that God has had set up in the Old Testament. You know, Jesus dealt with it as something that the Pharisees were, you know, kind of using to condemn other people with. But, you know, rest is something that's still extremely important for all of us as believers to have rest that is scheduled. And I really wish that's something that I would've done, you know, earlier on in ministry, because it's extremely beneficial. And that rest time is not just to, you know, sit around and do nothing all the time, although that might be what it calls for sometimes. But that rest time, is to really take time to, you know, not necessarily focus on the things that are going on around you, but to focus on Jesus. And so, yeah. That's definitely something I would tell myself.
Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, for sure. And that would kind of go along with the thought process I had with the power of "No." You know, knowing how to say, "No." Cause, you know, there's so many times I think, you know like, I'd always seen my pastor doing something and so I thought, "well, if he can do all that, then I should be able to too." Not realizing that he had said, "no," to a thousand other things. You know, that he was like, "does this align with the vision of the church?" If it doesn't, well, you know what, maybe if we have time at some point, then yeah, we can do it. But if it's not, then we're gonna have to say no. You know? Is that taking away from my family time? Okay, well then that has to be a, "no." You know, I need to guard those times with my family. And so, you know, that was something that, gosh, it was such a hard thing to learn early on. Cause I'd seen, you know, pastors doing 60, 70, 80 hours a week and, you know, I'm like, "okay, well that's the norm." Right? Well, here I am also bi-vocational. I was like, "well, how do I fit---
Ben Cline
How do you do that?
Jonathan Hernandez
Both of those 40 hours a week?" Plus, you know, 60, 70 hours at the church? You know, how does this all work? Well it works because there is this word that we can say, "no," you know? Obviously we need to be led by the spirit, you know, and knowing which directions we go. But also knowing that, you know what, it's okay to say, "no," to things and you're gonna be empowered when you're able to say, "no," to things that you shouldn't be doing anyways. You know? And so knowing those things, I think's always powerful to be able to step into what you're called. Instead of stepping into things that I just don't know how to say, "no," to it. You know, cause there's many things early on that I was just doing because, well, "I want to be a good person. I want to, you know, I want help people." Not realizing, "well that's not the calling that God had called me into." So here I am doing something that, you know, I'm not even equipped, you know, in a sense, to do those things. And if I could have just said, "no," you know? And also, I think that's where, you know, maybe with this next point would be having connections. I think if you look throughout scripture, everywhere you see community, you know, I mean if you look through the Old Testament, look through the New Testament, every story is connected to somewhat of a community of people. And so, you know, I think we think our community is just within our church, and that's a great community that you should be growing and maturing in. But there's also this wider community, you know? As pastors, sometimes we get so zoned in only our church, you know, and that's all we're looking at. But gosh, we're missing out on so many relationships if we could just learn how to, "hey, you know what, now I have great friends with Gary and with you." And so it's like we can grow in a community outside. And so if I know, "hey, this isn't what our church is called to, but I know that that's what your church is called to." "Hey, let's help you guys, you know, jump into that," and be able to grow in that too. And so, learn how to work within a community. I think that would've been something great that I could have known early on, you know? Cause, you know, I think you always hear people say, "well, they're not part of our church, and so we don't want to go be a part of that." And it's like, "whoa, that's so backwards," you know? Thinking like we should be, "Hey, if that church is doing something amazing for the kingdom, why don't we support it?" Why don't we, you know, gosh, we could even just, even if it's just a simple posting on Facebook to help somebody else see it. Maybe we can't go to it, but you know, let's help each other. We're all part of the kingdom. Like, you know, we're all gonna be worshiping in heaven together, so why don't we help and worship with each other here on earth?
Ben Cline
Yeah. It makes you think of, you know, Jesus and his ministry and in establishing the early church. You know, we didn't have all these denominational differences and whatever you want to call them. But, you know, the course of time has really kind of drawn some lines that get in the way of us having that community of fellowship as fellow Christians. And, you know, it's important to stand for what you believe doctrinally. But, you know, God just wants us to be a community of believers and that's true. Like, you know, we're all gonna be in heaven together and worshiping God together. So why don't we start practicing that now? It's interesting. One of the things that I just look back and I feel like I was really, really bad about this: when I was a young, a much younger pastor, is that I would always worry about all of the little things that were going on. And, you know, you hear the phrase, "don't sweat the small stuff." Well, it's really true. Like, you really just gotta let that stuff roll off. And, you know, that's something that I wish I would've done as a younger pastor. You know, if I could go back and say, "don't worry about that stuff." Like, there's all this stuff that just, you know, when you think about why you're doing the work that you're doing. You know, why you're doing the ministry that God has called you to. It's not so that you can worry about, you know, why somebody did this or that or whatever, and or why somebody's making the decisions that they're making. The small stuff is small stuff. If we're gonna focus on what we need to be focusing on, it really should be about, you know, making sure that we understand the gospel and that we're living our lives for Christ. And that we're, you know, out there witnessing to the world that is lost. And, you know, those are the big things and we should really be worrying about those things instead. So that's another thing that's on my list.
Jonathan Hernandez
Yep. Oh, I think I was still not the best at that all way up in time. You know, now as a youth pastor, things are a lot different and I'm trying to learn how to even balance the small stuff there, right? That's what some of the, you know, small things that, you know, I'm trying to learn. I went from being a senior pastor to a youth pastor, and a lot of times it's the opposite way, you know? You've been a youth pastor or children's pastor, worship pastor, something else before the lead role. And so, you know, here I am, the lead role right off the bat and now, you know, transitioning to youth pastor and it's just like, well, this is a lot of different things. And some of the things are similar, but just on a smaller scale. And so I think for me, the last one, at least for today, would be really with the finances. I think in a small church sometimes the pastor's doing everything. And with the finances, I would encourage, you know, cause I know I had to do finances pretty much the whole time I was the pastor of the church, you know? So it's like trying to find somebody that can do it, I think. You know, we weren't a big enough church to be able to pay someone outside of the church to do it. So a lot of times, it was me and then someone else trying to help. So that way, you know, we're not having one person do it by themselves, you know, for integrity reasons and stuff. But, you know, make sure that there's multiple eyes on the finances and not just yourself. You know, we can get ourselves into a lot of trouble. And we're human, we make mistakes. You know, not saying that we're gonna steal anything, but, you know, just not being able to do the accounting software, right? You know, so if we have multiple eyes on it, you know, I know I'm not an accounting major. I took accounting in high school and that was the extent of it. So thank the Lord that he had me go through that in high school to know how to do it now. So make sure that we have multiple eyes on those things. It's something I would tell my younger self is, you know, make sure that you're having people and just training people up. You know, there were people that could step into it but, you know, I was just always like, "well, it's easier, I'll just do it myself."
Ben Cline
It's too much work.
Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, you know, I can get this done in half the time that it would take to train. And so instead of, you know, and that's the whole thing about the, "no" earlier. You know, knowing that I can say, "no," to myself. "Okay, John, you're doing enough. Allow someone else to step into these roles." You know, all those who are attending all the churches that are out there, just know that your pastor's not perfect. And he needs grace just like everybody else does. And, you know, these are things that we are all learning as pastors in ministry and will continue learning for the rest of our lives.