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This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Gary Hashley and Brad Kilthau.
Gary Hashley
We are looking at another question today, helping clarify things in people's minds. And here's what came, "Christians and others often talk about good and bad, and that there is a spiritual war going on between God's angels and Satan's angels. I get God having angels, but not sure about Satan having angels. Are these what are called demons, and do I have to be worried about them?" So, to start with, we need to be reminded that Lucifer, who we came to know as Satan, the devil, the serpent, the dragon. He's called all of those in scripture. He started out as an angel. We read about this in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel chapter 28. That's easy to remember: 14x2 = 28. But in Isaiah 14:12, "how are you fallen from heaven, oh day star, son of dawn? How are you cut down to the ground? You who laid the nation's low. And here's the answer you set in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven above the stars of God. I'll set my throne on high. I will sit on the mount of the assembly in the far reaches of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will make myself like the most high.' But you are brought down to sheel, to the far reaches of the pit." We find that Lucifer was originally an angel himself, because God didn't create Satan as Satan. He didn't create demons as demons, but He did create angels as well as on earth creating humans. But He created angels, an enumerable company of angels, and they were there serving Him. And yet this Lucifer, who it would appear, was maybe the highest ranking angel in God's host of angels. According to Isaiah, he started to become proud. He started to think that, "why should I serve this God? Why can't I be God?" And he declares that he wants to be God, and God cast him from heaven. And he took with him other angels who had followed his thoughts, who had decided they wanted to follow him instead of following God. And they were cast from heaven and Lucifer, we know now as Satan, we know him as the devil. John in Revelation talks of him as the dragon, talks of him as the serpent. And that's where he came from. So he was an angel, and those who fell with him had been angels. In Revelation 12, starting at verse seven says, "now war arose in heaven: Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent who is called," listen to this, "the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, he was thrown down to earth and his angels were thrown down with him." So when you hear of demons or Satan's angels, it appears from scripture. We're talking about the same group and there are angels who followed Lucifer and his rebellion. Angels who decided that Lucifer must have, they thought had a chance to dethrone God and then found out you can't dethrone God. A created being cannot dethrone their creator. And they were cast from heaven. Earlier in chapter 12 of Revelation, it talks about the dragon with his tale drug out a third of the stars. And the understanding that I've heard all my years is that third of the stars implies that one third of all of the angels God had created went with Lucifer in his rebellion. We read in the Old Testament in the days of Moses, of a rebellion that started with Korah Dathan and Abiram. And Korah decided Moses was getting too big for his britches, and that Korah ought to be in the same place Moses was in. Many people listened to Korah and decided Korah was right, and they were going to dethrone Moses. God stepped in and said, "no, don't dethrone the person I've put in charge!" And so Moses stayed in charge. And Korah, of course, that says the Earth opened up and swallowed him and his stuff. But yes, there are two types of angels now, but there was only one type of angel at creation. But there are two types of angels now. And so the question then comes about the spiritual warfare that happens between these two entities. In our last time we did this, Brad alluded to the time in Daniel, when Daniel prays and Gabriel is sent to deliver a message as God's angel, taking a message to God's man, God's prophet Daniel. And it says that Satan and his angels got in the way and there was a battle taking place until Michael shows up and leads the charge against Satan. And Gabriel then is able to go on 21 days later, earth days later, and take the message to Daniel. We read about the armor of God. It says, "we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world." It says, "so put on the armor: the breastplate of righteousness and the helmet of salvation. Take the sword of the spirit." You know, "the shoes of the preparation of the gospel of peace, the belt of truth around our waist." The word of God, the sort of the spirit, the shield of faith, because there are battles going on that we never see. You know, when Elisha was surrounded by the enemy and his servant was all upset Elijah said, you know, prayed, "God open his eyes so he can see." And the hills were filled with fiery chariots and God's army was out there fighting against the armies of Satan that we never see. So yes, there are evil forces who started out as angels, but we know them now as demons led by the chief of the demons, Lucifer, who we also know as Satan, the dragon, the serpent, the wicked one. So Pastor Brad, should we be worried about these demons?
Brad Kilthau
Well, there's a lot of thought with that. And in some cases, well, we need to know where they are. When we look at the Bible, we understand that some of those demons that were cast out, that followed Satan outta heaven, were cast out and came down to this earth. We know that some of them we don't have to worry about because they're permanently bound right now. We read about that in Genesis of where these angels came and had sexual relations with daughters and men, with women, human beings. And of course, there was the offspring, and this was totally against God's will. God saw it as such a heinous, immoral sin that he bound them forever, and they are in the lowest abyss. And they will be there until the Lord decides to dump that into the lake of fire at the end of time, and so they don't get another chance. And so we don't have to worry about those angels, those fallen angels that is. But there are also the fallen angels that we think about in Revelation 9 that come out. We could call them the locust demons that are in the bottom of the Euphrates River as they obviously sinned against God in a very heinous way here on this earth. And they are cast into this abyss, but they will be released during the tribulation period as part of the fifth trumpet judgment to carry out some very hurtful things against those who are on the face of the earth. If we're believers, I'm just saying, we don't have to worry about those angels either because it will come out during the tribulation period. And as we are raptured before the tribulation, we won't be here to be seeing them. But there are still demons that are active, thriving, doing the work of Satan right now all around us. And just as you said, Gary, if we could pull back that veil, we would see that spiritual warfare. We're not fighting against flesh and blood, we're fighting against a spiritual enemy in our life. It's something I think we always have to be reminded of. What can these demons be doing to us right now? I think a lot of people think about the demon possessed people as we see in the gospel accounts of where they were cast out and and so forth. When Jesus cast the demons outta that one man, a host of demons, and they went into the swine and then they went out into the sea of Galilee and drowned there. You know, and I think a lot of people have this misconception that, well, we don't have to think about those demons anymore.
Brad Kilthau
They're not active today like they were then. I truly believe they're more active today than they've ever been because they know their time is getting shorter and shorter before their judgment comes. So how can they hurt us? Well they can cause, as we know in the Bible, certain physical and emotional and mental disorders in people. We can see that in Matthew 12 and Luke 13. They can also cause among people what we would call self mutilation. Some of the things we've looked at in the past, one of the things that's very popular was, those who were cutting themselves. And some of that's still going on today. Sometimes we wonder, where does that come from? Why would a person do that to themselves? Well, I think we've labeled everything as a psychological problem, but we need to know there's also a spiritual problem going on. And sometimes I think we're mislabeling some of that. And it is the work of demons. They're very active today in teaching false doctrine, and I think that's one of their main things. In fact, the Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 4, he says, "Now, the spirit of God expressly says in the latter times, some will depart from the faith giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons." And when we start looking at what's being taught in some of our church buildings across our country today, and we start to wonder, where could that come from? How could ministers of God, claiming to be that, standing front of his congregation and telling his people that Jesus was not born of a virgin. To stand in front of his people and say, "well, Jesus resurrected from the grave, but it wasn't physical. It was only spiritual." And we gotta think, where could you get such a thought? How could you stand in front of people and share that? Well, the only way you could do that, is if you are being misled by, I think, a demonic presence. That there has to be an influence of a demonic spirit that's misguiding and teaching false doctrine through people as a mouthpiece for them. They can hinder spiritual activity. I know that those of us who've sought to lead people to Christ, it invariably happens. And I know, Gary, you could attest to this too. You know, when you're preaching a message and you're getting down to the heart of the message, you're ready to drive the point home that people need to recognize Christ as Savior and Lord of their life. And you're bringing it right to that point, and all of a sudden hymnals start to drop on the floor, or it seems like somebody pinches a baby about that time. And the whole place goes to confusion and immediately as a servant in the ministry, we recognize what that is. That's a spiritual attack. It's trying to hinder the sharing of the gospel that happens over and over. We gotta also remember that demons can do miracles. They're limited in their ability to do that, but they can do some very deceiving miracles. One of the things that I thought of a while back is what we call the apparitions of Mary. And there's a rise on this right now in the world of where many people are truly believing that they are seeing Mary, the mother of our Lord. As we think about in the Bible, they're seeing Mary appear before them, and then she starts to share some things. She says, "I'm speaking for God to you." Most often, what she is saying to these people is, "you need to pray to me. You need to confess your sin to me. You need to come to me. I'm gonna be the intern between you and God." And we know that's false. We know that's not true. It is only Jesus who is the intercessor between us and the Father. How can that be? Well, demonic beings can actually present themselves in a physical form to look like a human being and be used to share false things. And people will believe this because, again, they've been deceived. And then sometimes, yeah, they can invade and possess certain humans. And that still happens today. And I know we like to label everything as a physical or a mental issue, but we need to look sometimes further. There could also be demonic possession of people today. Some people have asked me in the past, they've said, "So, Pastor Brad, have you ever seen a demon possessed person in your years in ministry?" And I've gotta say, "yes, I have." And when that person looked at me and spoke to me, I immediately recognized that it was a demonic presence. And of course, how do you defend against that? It comes back to what you said again Gary, Ephesians 6, it is through prayer and through the word. Through prayer and through the word. The word is our offensive weapon against a demonic presence in our lives.
Gary Hashley
Well, I hope that helps answer that question about Satan's angels and demons. Are we talking about the same thing? And I believe the answer is, "yes," we are. And there's much to learn and there's much to grow in our faith, because greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world.