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This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Kiley Callaway, Tyson Lambertson, John Mulholland and Jon Simpson.
Jon Simpson
In a couple of different episodes we're working through this idea of equipping. We've been talking about equipping ourselves as well as equipping others. And so we kind of want to continue from last time. We were talking about how we equip ourselves, and how we interact with stuff that's maybe oppositional. Where it's not what we agree with or believe, whether that be kind of within the Christian world or even if it gets into the secular culture, you know, we're interacting with stuff that we don't know necessarily agree with. And we read a scripture out of Ephesians 4. Do you wanna read that again just to get us back to that?
John Mulholland
Yeah. "Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won't be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever, they sound like the truth." So really the mindset is, how do I interact with thoughts, philosophies, ideas, ideals that are different, that are counter to what the Bible has to say? Where do we find those ideas? What the purpose of that is, in terms of engaging people who are in our culture, like trying to understand what their viewpoint is before we tell them ours. So how do we kind of do that? You talked about your background in student ministry, which was incredibly influential for you and the same way for me. I talked about kind of scouring social media to see like, what are the things people are talking about? What are the ways they're talking about it, to try and understand their perspective? And we didn't hear from Kylie?
Kylie Calloway
Well, yeah, I mean mine's way different. When I took the part-time position at the hospital as a chaplain, I thought I was doing it for one reason, but it really felt like God had a totally different reason, cause I've entered into what's called CPE or clinical pastoral education that teaches you exactly how to be a chaplain. So my struggle and learning through, is taking off my pastor hat and also as a counselor, my counselor hat, and going into that hospital room that it's not my appointment. It's not my visit, it's the person's visit. And I'm encountering, you know, luckily here a lot of the patients are Christians, but you also encounter people that could care less about you being a pastor, you being a counselor, they're not there to get advice you're going into their world. And so the biggest challenge for me is learning how to enter into their story and enter into their moment and help them in whatever spiritual journey they're in. Whether that be Satanic, whether that be a Jew, whether that be a Muslim, or whether that be a Christian. And even as a Christian, not putting my theological belief on them and listening to them where they're at and trying to steer them to a place that's not a bias on my end, which is pastors, when they come into our office. I mean, we're supposed to tell them, "This is what scripture says, this is what you need to do." And I can't do that. And I find it beautiful because it's challenging me to see the world, the scriptures, and people's journey in different places, and learning a lot from them, of what they're thinking, what they're going through. I think I love now more than ever, visiting those patients that don't even know the Lord, and they're cussing at me and cussing at things in life. And, you know, doing their fist up to God and not bringing in the scriptures, but leading them to a place that can begin to open up a dialogue of discovery for them in their own mind.
John Mulholland
Well, and you even talked about, way earlier today, how your role as a chaplain at the hospital has led you to be in the hospital room with someone from Westway or someone from Mitchell Berean. And to go into that, like kind of checking your, like, we do have theological differences, kind of checking those differences at the door. And how do I minister to, and how do I love and how do I serve that person that's in front of me without bringing like all of my things with that?
Kylie Calloway
I have to turn it off. And I mean, the beauty of it is, being able to be with y'all and actually being your advocate there instead of a pastor trying to, you know, steer somebody one way or the other.
John Mulholland
"Well, when you get out, come to Northfield. Right, I mean, you're not saying that, and you're, I mean, you're not doing that.
Kylie Calloway
No, my job is actually, I visited one of your congregants and, "Can I contact John and let him know that you're here? And, you know, he's already been contacted." Yeah and to be your advocate of, you know, that you're the best thing since slice bread, which is easy for me cause I know y'all. But even if I didn't, I still have to operate that way. Yeah, I would say the biggest challenge is just to turn it off. I'm not a pastor there, I'm not a therapist there. And the moment for you, to help you wherever you are. And that has been probably the first couple months, the hardest thing for me to do,
John Mulholland
I think that's just so interesting. You know, when at the beginning of Acts, Jesus says, "The Holy Spirit's gonna come upon you and you will be my witnesses," like, I think that's one of the hardest things for Christians. I find myself in this category and I would put myself in that category. Man, how do I turn off my desire for them to maybe respond and like, as much as I want them to respond in a certain way and how do I just come alongside them and love them in the midst of where they are.
Kylie Calloway
And I think for me, that's where I try to follow. What's called the Law of Love is, I have to lovingly guide them in that moment. Now that's not to say, if there was an open door, that I can't take it, I can. But it's, you know, I mean, let's just be honest, we're pastors, we're in the Christian world all the time, we're in the bubble. And I think getting outside of that and having coffee with somebody that doesn't believe in God and hates Jesus and hates the Bible is a good thing for us. And what I have gotten out of this, is being in kind of the secular realm, cause it is. And seeing patients that have nothing to do with God, has been the best thing for me ever in 26 years semester.
John Mulholland
And I wonder how much that's changed your real job, your pastoral.
Kylie Calloway
Just the ability to listen, and to have what would just be the ministry of presence in that moment, instead of trying to be the man with the answers, for me.
Jon Simpson
Yeah, that's really good. I think, probably for me too, some of the times where I've probably grown the most, learned the most, have been times when I wasn't in the professional, you know, pastor role. But I was working a regular job in the regular world and just having to be open to and figure out where people are really coming from. When they say certain things, what do they mean? And what is it? Where do those things come from? It's kind of like just a realness to, like you said, "Be able to listen and kind of turn off whatever agenda," in a sense. And just be able to interact and take in where people are at and where they're coming from without that, maybe that push or that judgment. You know, I'm constantly thinking, "You know, I think Paul, when he got to Athens, he's like, you know, he gets up on Mars hill right? It's like, you know, he had gone around the city, looked at their stuff, he'd taken it in, he listened to them. And then he had an intelligent presentation based on a real, kind of deeper understanding of where they're coming from. And he saw, yes, an opening, you know, you have this, I mean, do you wanna read it? The idol to the unknown?
John Mulholland
Yeah, I love it. "Men of Athens, I noticed you're very religious in every way for as I was walking along, I saw your many shrines. And one of your alters had this inscription on it, To an Unknown God, this whom you worship without knowing, is the one I'm telling you about." I think today, like we would expect Paul to be like, "Men of Athens, I noticed that you are worshiping all of these false idols. You guys are going to hell. And let me tell you about Jesus." And it's so counterintuitive what he does, and just like, how do we help? How do I have this mindset? How do we help the people in our churches have this mindset? Like it's such a cautious way. And like, I love Acts 17. It's one of my favorite texts in scripture. And like, he gives a gospel presentation without mentioning Jesus one time. And I think if the three of us were to get up in front of our church body and do this, we might have people who are angry with us, because we weren't maybe as clear as we could have been, or we didn't condemn the idolatry as much. And we didn't do all these things, but the way he handles this is just so incredibly wise, recognizing, cause he knew who he was dealing with. And we read elsewhere in Acts, we know what Paul's you know, what his background was what his education was. Like, he knew who he was talking about. So I think if there is ever an apologetic or if there is ever an instructive on how we are to interact with people who don't know Jesus, like, Acts 17 says.
Jon Simpson
Well, at the end of 17, he takes this really, you know, he takes an approach that says, "I understand where you're coming from and I get a little bit of who you are." And then, by the end, he gets to the resurrection, and that kind of is the hinge point, where some people think he's crazy and some people are like, I wanna hear more. And then he gathers them after, you know, some join him, some become believers, some don't, but his approach is, I mean it's a missionary approach. And I think that's something that, I feel an importance of today that I'm exposed to kind of the modern thinking on things. What are people thinking right now? What is out there? The people that are influencing other people. So I kind of look to podcasts and things, where they have a huge following, a lot of people are listening to them. Cause I'm like, "Okay, this is influencing a lot of people. They're people turning to this. Why?" You know, and listening to what they think and what they have to say. And yes, at times they're oppositional to Jesus and the gospel. At times they say things, that to me, "Oh man, here's why that's true." You know, I just wanna jump in and go. "Here's why that's true." Cause they do, the world does at times figure things out. I listened to a guy talk about forgiveness and the power of it, the importance of it and how he's learned over time. Like, it's not healthy to hold onto grudges and stay mad at people. And he's just learned this and he's not a believer, man, he's a total pagan, but he's learned the truth and the power behind a biblical principle. I'm like, well, yeah. I mean, yeah. Would you talk to, you know, some of us who are Christian struggle with this. You know, it's like anyway, being exposed to other ideas and other people, to me is important. To really be good at presenting the gospel and speaking to our culture today.
John Mulholland
And there would be some people in the Christian world who would have, from their perspective, a legitimate beef that we would expose ourselves to this kind of thinking. But we want to like, we wanna be exposed to it, to I think celebrate what's true. Like you said, the thing that you heard about forgiveness, I said this a few weeks ago at Westway. Like, isn't it awesome when culture catches up to the Bible?
Jon Simpson
Yeah, exactly. When they figure something out.
John Mulholland
You know, celebrate truth where they see it. Like, that's what Paul does, celebrate truth where they see it. But also, confront false things, and we have to know what that is. And part of our role and our responsibility is teaching our church bodies. Like, how do I do that? How do I become like Paul in Athens? Like, kind of checking our theological comfort zones, understandings at the door. Not ignoring them, not turning our back on them, but recognizing, "Like, maybe this isn't the space for someone to hear, like what I might believe about end times theology." This might not be the space for that.
Jon Simpson
Well Paul, to me that Ephesians four passage that, "You won't be tossed by every wind of teaching." Things that sound so good. I mean, honestly, there's people in our culture, and there's churches going this way. There's Christians going this way where, because of a compassionate. Here's the compassionate, loving approach being presented, whether it's sexual orientation or gender, whatever it is, it's like they're being swayed to move away from scripture in order to, you know, "Well, this is what you have to do if you're compassionate and loving." Well, those are biblical. That's what Jesus would do. But then, you know, so to me, when I engage the stuff in the world and what they're teaching, it doesn't sway me at all. I'm not swayed, but I am educated and I do learn better. What are they thinking? Where do they come from? Where are people at? And how can I speak to that? I think it keeps me equipped and sharp to be able to preach the gospel today.
Kylie Calloway
And that's where our job comes in to equip them to where they will be mature and to where they won't be swayed. And I think we'll be talking about that next time.