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This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Poole and Gary Schick.
Ben Poole
All right, so forewarning---this question is---we obviously don't know who asks the questions. And so we don't want to be disrespectful, but we also want to look at this from what we believe, a Christian's standpoint should be. Some questions we get, we feel maybe motivated politically, or maybe you hear things from other leaders and preachers. And so we're going to discuss this from what we believe is the perspective a Christian needs from a biblical standpoint.
Gary Schick
It's a good question really.
Ben Poole
It really is. And so we want to honor the question and the one that's asking it, but also, just be prepared. It may not be what you were expecting.
Gary Schick
Do you want the Bible's answer or what you want to hear?
Ben Poole
Yup. So here it is, and this is probably something that you've heard. If you've been online listening, this is definitely a hot topic. So here it is, "As we watch what Russia is doing in the Ukraine, many are wondering if this is fulfilling any biblical prophecy." So again, this is something I've seen a lot of. And I think there's gonna be multiple stances on this, depending on who you listen to. But as always, we want to come at it from a scriptural standpoint. So with that, Gary, why don't you open us up with some plots?
Gary Schick
You know, and I really wasn't thinking about it when I said it. I was just thinking about the snow outside, but if you're familiar with the Narnian kind of allegory, there was a time in Narnia when they were waiting for Aslan to come back. Which is, symbolically, the world under a winter like we're under now, in more ways than one, waiting for Jesus to return. And that's a question, you know, really is this a sign that Jesus is coming soon? And I know there's a lot of places people go in scripture, I actually start with the gospel. Every time people want to talk to me about the end times and "Are we in them and are we getting close?" I start with the words of Jesus, and then I go from there. Out to Revelation and back to Daniel and all those places that people wanna jump to right away. I start with the words of Jesus. And that gives me interestingly, a slightly different perspective on how it's gonna unfold than most Christians seem to have to me. The context is very close to the end of Jesus' life and ministry on this earth. He's in His final week in Jerusalem, He's in the temple---Herod's temple---which was one of the wonders of the world. And, you know, the disciples lived in a time kind of like ours. There was some stability and there was great instability. They were under Roman rule, and they were looking to get out from under it. Everybody was thinking that Jesus maybe was a Messiah, but not the Messiah. Cause they thought, they were thinking, "Political leader to get us out of this mess." Not truly a savior to the whole world. In fact, they weren't even interested in the rest of the world. They, like so many of us, let's just be honest we're interested in ourselves and our own life and our own little plot on the planet. And that's kind of where the Jews were, they didn't really have a God's heart for the world mindset. They had a God's heart for "us" mindset. And so anyway, one of the things that was stable---they thought in their world---was God's temple. "Here it is. Look at it Jesus, isn't it amazing." The buildings and the structures and wow! I mean, it was just really, very recently completed in Jesus time. Actually, I think they may have still been finishing up part of it. And so he just kind of makes this offhanded comment, "Do you see all these great buildings? I tell you not one stone will be left on another." Well to them, the thought of that temple being taken away could only mean the end of the world. And so later in the day, while they're sitting on the Mount of Olives, sun's going down, they're looking across. Today, if you sit on the Mount of Olives, you're gonna see, what is it? The Dome of the Rock. I mean, it's built where the temple was, this Muslim edifice. But there's kind of a mystique about it, the sun's shining off the golden roof. And so probably you'd get a similar feeling. And so the disciples are looking across at God's temple at that point and they're saying, "So Lord, tell us, when will these things be and what will be the sign of your coming?" You know, because all they could imagine was the final, the showdown. And so I wanna take you back to Mark 13, you could also look at it in Matthew 24, you can also look at it in Luke. All of these end times speeches of Jesus, they're the same one, but each one, you know, Matthew tells us more than Mark does, Luke tells us some different things. But I start with Mark, cause it's the shortest, simplest, and really the core of it. And so Jesus said to them, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one will be left. They'll all be thrown down." So while sitting on the Mount of Olives, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, "Tell us, when will these things be? What will be the sign that they're about to be accomplished?" Jesus began to say to them, "See that no one leads you astray." This is a topic that people, Christians are vulnerable to being led astray about. Because we have a itching ears that want to know more. "See that no one leads you astray. Many will come in my name saying, 'I am he' and they will lead many astray." And there were false Christs prior to Jesus: At the time of Jesus, right after Jesus, and there have been a few since. They'll lead ministry. And then, this is what's relevant to us Mark 13:7, "And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars do not be alarmed. This must take place, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are but the beginning of birth pains." So first I wanna say where this does fit into scriptural prophecy, and then I want to key in on just one thing Jesus said there. In terms of prophecy, there has been a lot going on in the world in recent years. You know, we're hearing more about global warming and increasing, you know, violence in our weather. We've had the COVID thing. And just as we're coming out of COVID we all are wondering, I am too, could this lead to world war three? And what will that mean? Well, Jesus talks about how, as we approach the end, the very things that have been since the dawn of time: natural disaster, human war, famines and skyrocketing prices like you and I are seeing at the fuel pump today, these things will happen. But the only part of it that is showing that we're getting closer to "The Turn of the Jesus," is He compares it to birth pains. And I don't know about you, I remember particularly when our first one was born. My wife didn't believe that it was the day, but I'm sitting there at Red Lobster with her having supper and I just started timing the contractions. And they started out pretty spread out, but the intensity and the frequency began to increase. And I remember going upstairs with her to the hospital, she was still resistant and I was all wild, you know, like wild in my head. And I get to the desk and I said to the nurse, "I think we're pregnant." She looked at my wife, "Yeah, I think you're right about that." What I meant was, I think our pregnancy is about to turn into something more. The world is pregnant friends, and we're about to give birth to something. Is it today? Is it tomorrow? I don't know. But Jesus did say there would be an increase in intensity as we draw near to His coming. But what I wanna just move back to, is one word He said here in verse seven, "When you hear of wars and rumors of wars do not be alarmed." The Greek word there is, "θροεῖσθε," and it means to wail, to clamor, to frighten, to cry aloud, to make a noise by outcry, troubled, frightened, be troubled in mind, alarmed. Isn't that where we find ourselves? When we're sitting there looking at the news, whatever news station you happen to watch, whichever one you've decided is telling you the truth or not. We get a little crazy don't we? And Jesus says, "Hey. Hey! Don't be alarmed. Don't be." Then He goes on and talks about what we should be a little concerned about. You're gonna be brought before rulers in this world, and you're gonna have to give an account for what you believe. And even then don't be afraid, just say what the holy spirit says. Jesus says, "You be my people until I come again, you focus on that. Don't be focused on what's in the head lines." Cause it's gonna come, it's gonna go. And it's gonna come with greater frequency and nothing we think about is gonna change it. But what we do wanna focus on is being witnesses for Him. And living out the Christian life and praying for the leaders and letting God be God of the things that we can't control.
Ben Poole
Yeah. This is probably a touchy subject for a lot of people, and we understand that. And I think that from our perspective, whether it is fulfilling prophecy or not, I don't think that should be our main focus. Because one thing I know: God is God, He is unchanging and He is going to send Jesus back. "Period." End of discussion. When that happens nobody knows, not even the Son. He even said, "I don't know, it's only God. When He says it's time, it's time, and that's that." And so what happens that I struggle with, personally, is watching Christians get so wrapped up into things like this. They neglect the ministry of being a Christian. We are called, not to look for signs and wonders and prophecies, in fact, Jesus---
Gary Schick
In this very passage.
Ben Poole
He kind of is antagonistic against those who are looking for the signs and the wonders. And He's saying, "This is who you are to be." He's asked, "What's the greatest commandment?" Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And the second is like it, Love your neighbor as yourself. These two complete, they are the fulfillment. They are the embodiment of all the law and the prophets. That's who we're to be, is to love God and to love people. And what happens is, so many times Christians are getting caught up in watching the news or listening to certain televangelists or preachers, from my perspective, teaching a fearful faith.
Gary Schick
And it brings in money.
Ben Poole
Yeah, it does.
Gary Schick
It sells.
Ben Poole
Fear sells, and so we are called to something else. And I really love the book of Revelation, and I think I see it differently than a lot of people. Like you said, it is one of the greatest books of hope in the entire scriptures. Because you think about the first generation church---
Gary Schick
God Wins!
Ben Poole
That they were being hunted like animals legally, legally murdered.
Gary Schick
Right.
Ben Poole
And God sends this revelation to John, for John to write down. To send to the churches as a message of hope, that you are going to endure great suffering, but I'm coming back.
Gary Schick
And that's the other thing people don't want to hear. I mean, obviously there are different viewpoints. Is Jesus coming before the tribulation, middle of tribulation, after tribulation? Regardless of your stand on that, Christians will go through times of tribulation. We're going through them now. Is it 'the' great tribulation? I mean, that's gonna depend on your position: Pre-trib, mid-trip, post-trib, and for some of you, what trip? I know, it gets confusing. But I think those arguments can be a ruse, because regardless of what happens at the very end, the last seven years, Jesus---in this passage---very directly says, "You will go through times. There will be times of trouble." And that's when we anchor in Him and say, "You know what? I know you're coming again, and I know you've got me. And I know that I need to rely on you for how I need to respond and not respond in the flesh."
Ben Poole
Yeah.
Gary Schick
But to be Christ's kid in the world and be prayerful and watchful and loving toward all. Which gets harder when it gets tougher. You know, it is hard to love.
Ben Poole
And that's just who God has called us to be. We know that tribulation and hard times are going to come. Who are you to be in the middle of those? You are to be the sons and daughters of the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and to live for Him and to worship Him. But we can never use these times to neglect sharing the message of Jesus, because maybe God's coming back soon and maybe it's gonna be another thousand years. It doesn't really matter. He has called us to be His church, His people in the midst of these times. So that's our encouragement to you. I know that, maybe again, this might not have been the way you thought this conversation would go, and we would love to have more conversations about this if you'd like. But again, we're looking at this from a scriptural point from what we believe and really my heart and I think Gary's. No matter what comes be God's people.
Gary Schick
Well, and what gives us a great opportunity here is, just as Christians kind of get a little scared and wondering, or are excited, I would say, the world is actually scared. And to be without Christ in the crisis that we're in, and have just been in and are about to be in next, we don't know what's coming next. There's a lot of instability. You know, we've talked about what's gonna happen with oil and nickel and all kinds of, because we're dependent, we are so dependent. You know, can we even fully break the rush on everything who knows? But we have a message of hope. We know that God wins and that God's got us. And so it's not a blind, fluffy, boy are you're feet even laying on the ground. No, we are. We're walking through it. We're paying at the pump. We're praying for the relief to the people of Ukraine and the salvation of, you know, President Putin that he would just have a different heart and mindset. Whether that happens, you know, we know the gospel is getting through to the people in Ukraine and Russia and we need to proclaim it right here.