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This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Kiley Callaway, Tyson Lambertson, John Mulholland and Jon Simpson.
Jon Simpson
All right, well we've been discussing life change and transformation as a part of what it means to follow Jesus and to become a follower of His. Again, Jesus didn't just say, "get saved," but he said, "Come follow me." And so following Jesus means; it means some things for our lives. We've been talking about that. Sometimes we don't see the life transformation that we would hope to see. There can be breakdowns in that. So we've kind of been breaking down Romans 12, the first couple verses, and just unpacking that a little bit. John set up this discussion for us.
John Mulholland
Yeah. The last video we talked about, "Not Copying the Behavior and Customs in this World." And one of the things I liked about that conversation is, we didn't get overly specific. Like, it's not a list of dos and don'ts, which I know we're gonna talk more about this time; like making sure of these behaviors. But it really is about who we are, rather than what we do. But this time we're gonna talk about the next part of Romans 12:2, "but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think."
Jon Simpson
So one of the things I observed, just to maybe start this off, is that there has been a tendency throughout the history of the church, and you could say not just within Christianity. But there's been a tendency to try to control behavior and to set up rules, if you will. And kind of go towards those rules as ways of measuring and kind of defining, I guess, this life transformation or observing it. And yet this verse, it seems to me, says the opposite of that, you know? Rather than external rules that we can observe, Kylie I know you're a good Christian because you don't drink, you don't smoke, you don't chew, you don't go with girls, you know, that kind of stuff. But this is a transformation in the way you think, who you are inside. And I don't know why that is not what we gravitate towards in the church. Seems like we gravitate towards the observable metrics and behaviors. So how do we change the way we think? What does that look like and how does that happen?
Kiley Calloway
It all goes back again to finding his good pleasing and perfect will. And that's through the word. As far as---
Tyson Lambertson
Okay, so you would say that primary---I'm just gonna dump a whole bunch of words in.
Kiley Calloway
Dump that.
Tyson Lambertson
So you would say the primary way that God transforms us into a new person by changing the way we think is through his word? Is that fair? Because I would say that.
Kiley Calloway
What's the Bible stand for? Basic instructions before leaving Earth. So, you know, it's not about my works. It's not about me checking off my list: I did this today, I'm a good Christian. It's about getting into the word and transforming my mind. Like I said, you know, last session, there are a lot of things that I just don't agree with, but I have to transform my mind. It's the computer, right? It's the software of how I'm gonna live. But deeper than that, the mind's a terrible place to get into, because I mean, you're talking about strongholds, you're talking about offenses, you're talking about hurts. You're talking about patterns of thinking. You're talking about thinking ruts, thinking traps, icebergs that are there that will drive you to the opposite of God's word. Will drive the flesh and bring out the ugliness in our heart, so to speak, that the Bible clearly says, "Don't do this, don't do that." I mean, we say it's not a list of rules. Actually, there are some lists. There is the law of Christ, now that we've come into the New Testament, there are some things that we shouldn't do. And actually it's a little bit harder than the Old Testament was. But I have to transform my mind and follow the word.
John Mulholland
That's one of my favorite things about reading, especially through Paul's letters, is so many times he'll indicate, like, "the Christian life is not about following a list," and then here's a list for you to follow. Like, I just love the way he does that. So this really, I mean, we could end the video 10 minutes early if we wanted to. So really, what we're telling people is, you need to read your Bible.
Jon Simpson
But can I say something with your comment that he says, "it's not about a list, but then he gives a list?" But I think he gives the list because it is a way to measure, "What are you doing?" If you have these behaviors, you know, he'll say, "if you're doing these things, what you're not doing is living out your relationship with Jesus." Because a person doing that would never do these things. So he does it kind of like a, to me it's a measurement in a way.
Kiley Calloway
The list goes back to, this is the list of what the Lord wants.
John Mulholland
And Paul's list; and when he puts up competing lists. Like, if we were to look in Galatians 5 where we see the work, I think it's the works of the flesh versus the fruit of the spirit. If we were to compare those two lists, the fruit of the spirit are all character. So when Paul gives a list, his lists are character traits rather than behaviors. And whenever he does mention behaviors, the behaviors always flow out of those character lists. So for me, that's so much of what we're talking about here, being transformed into a new person. Like, that's the character that God is after, that Jesus is after, that Paul's after. That this whole book is really working on, is changing our character, who we are inside, like you said.
Kiley Calloway
So that's why it says "so, I say walk by the spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."
Tyson Lambertson
Well, so our mind is probably the most sophisticated piece of machinery ever known on planet Earth. How God created our minds. If you're like me, my emotions can lead me even though their real, can lead me down the wrong path. And I think that in this, the Lord always wants us to align our mind with His perfect will. His perfect will is in scripture. His perfect will can be fleshed out, but it's a constant battlefield of the world's identity of the mind versus God's identity and how to flesh that. So transformation, when you talk about transformation, cause this is a passionate piece and you having your degree in psychology and counseling and those things, how do you work that? How do you help somebody transform the renewing of their minds? To produce, sorry, produce is probably the wrong word. But to enlighten them to scripture and what God's best is for them.
Kiley Calloway
Right. So if we think about people, all people can do is behave. Like we're behaving with one another right now. We're behaving for this audience, and then when the camera goes off, we'll behave right?
John Mulholland
A different kind of behavior!
Kiley Calloway
Right? So all behavior is total behavior, and if we look at it as a car, there are two wheels up front, two wheels in the back. The two wheels in the back, we don't have a lot of control over, which is our feelings and our physiology. And a lot of people right now in society today are being motivated by their feelings. The Bible says, "let's flip that and let's control the two front wheels, the two front wheels we have direct control over." Sometimes we can't control our feelings. You may say something to me and a feeling wells up, a past event wells up that's been in my mind. But the two front wheels is my thinking and my actions. So as I conform my mind to His word, now the feelings and the physiology align. So now my feeling submits to my mind, because I've renewed it with the word of God. And what I tell people and what the Holy Spirit's been dealing with me is all people can do is give you information. And what you do with that information internally is totally up to you and how much you've gotten into the word. Because people can offend you, people can hurt you, people can say something and your automatic response is to get defensive. But if my mind is filled with His word, then my feelings and my physiology line up. Cause my feelings can affect my physiology. If I start feeling like, "oh my," then I start getting tense and that angry feeling and you know, just shaken. But my mind can control that, especially when it's filled with His word. And again, when I know who I am, I know what to do.
Tyson Lambertson
Just wanna make sure you're not saying that emotions don't matter, because emotions do matter greatly. Correct?
Kiley Calloway
Yes, emotions matter. I mean, that's why God gave us emotions right? That there are indications to certain things. You know, the Bible says, "don't let the sun go down on your anger." Anger is a good emotion in you, but what you do with that is definitely wrong. Fear is an emotion, but it's genetically put in us by God to get away from something that's dangerous. But if we take fear to an area where, you know, it's false evidence appearing real, then it can mess with our mind, that feeling, and we can think of things that are not even there. We can jump to conclusions. We can have all kinds of different things that are affecting us. So no, God's given us emotions, He's given those as indicators. Some indicators of what's going on internally in us as far as our heart and our spirit as warning signs. But to be very careful cause if you allow this emotion to keep going, it could cause some horrible things. But that's where I think, you know---here's what I say---God would've never put it in scripture if we couldn't do it. He's not gonna put something in there that's impossible. With His help, His power, His grace and His mercy, and then the direction of the Holy Spirit, we can transform our minds. We can control those two wheels and the physiology and the feelings will follow.
Jon Simpson
So kind of what I hear you saying too, in this sanctification transformation, is that it can be fruitless in a sense, or backwards if we focus on trying to change what we feel or trying to change those reactions that we can have to things. But really, you said something important, we can change the way we think, and so that's something within our power to change. Which is what the scriptures actually say that we should allow God to change the way we think here, right? He will change the way we think. So as we interact with Him, as we interact with the truth, both through his word, through the Holy Spirit who's present in our lives, then He will change the way we think about things. For instance, I think Jesus---
Kiley Calloway
By getting into the word.
Jon Simpson
So Jesus said, "Hey, don't worry about what you're going to eat, what you're gonna drink, what you're gonna wear. The pagans worry about that stuff. You belong to your father in heaven. He's got you covered." So, kind of a way for Jesus to change the way we think about this life and what matters. Cause it's awful easy to worry an awful lot. Thinking an awful lot what we're gonna eat what we're gonna wear, how we're gonna live. I mean, that consumes most people's lives in this world. And Jesus goes, "no, think differently." Right? Is that a good example of kind of the change of thinking that can change how we feel about stuff?
Kiley Calloway
Yeah, but that doesn't happen instantly at salvation. That's where I still say, as I make Him the Lord of my life, I'm hearing His heart, I'm hearing His mind, I'm hearing how He's thinking. And as I hear how He thinks and what He wants to see in my life. The guardrails He wants me to put in my life, how if I do this, blessing will come. I wanna be blessed, I don't know about y'all. I mean, I'm a little selfish here. I wanna live a good life. And in the word, He shows me ways to be that better person that's gonna bring those blessings. So, yes. You said He changes the way we think. Not instantaneously. I get into His word to discover what He says about my life.
John Mulholland
Yeah, and I think recognizing too, like for someone who's not a believer, and for someone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit actively working in their life, most likely they're gonna read this book and it's gonna be gibberish. It's not gonna make any sense. Which goes into, like, kind of a sideline conversation we had before we started recording this whole series was; and maybe this is another day where we record this one, but we asked the question, "are people really saved?" Like, what level of recognizing that the Holy Spirit is the one who, God transforms us, we don't transform ourselves. 100% in agreement with that. If someone has been a Christian for 25 years and there's no marked transformation in their life; like if that were me, I would think it would be reasonable for me to wonder like, "Am I really a follower of Christ?" That's probably a conversation for another day. But I think that's a reasonable point that someone, I think that could be a place where someone could reasonably question that and draw that conclusion. If there is no marked difference in my life, am I really a Christian?
Tyson Lambertson
One thing that we need to make mention of, is in this the Holy Spirit is a gentleman and He's not there with a whipstick or a cattle prod saying, "You messed up, I'm gonna shock you." He's always guiding us into this transformation, and renewal of the moral mind.